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Topic: "doubtful disputations" PLEASE READ
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Michael Harrison
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Well, we'll see how you stick to that. Here is your first opportunity. There is judgment, and there is 'righteous' judgment (which is basically His living opinion vs. our dead one). Perhaps you'll again appreciate my "providing the scriptures with that!":
Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Shall I wish you godspeed?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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bluefrog
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MICHAEL....Subject: doubtful disputations.
Thank you for providing the scriptures.
From now on, I will choose to no longer have anything to do with you, like you aren't here.
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Found in Him
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quote:
Originally posted by bluefrog:
God Himself does not propose to judge a man/woman until he/she is dead, so why should we?
Some minds are like concrete, thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Amen
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Michael Harrison
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and fond, perhaps this is a good place to re-cut/paste what I said just moments ago to bluefrog about judgment:
quote:
Bluefrog, I thought you knew the scriptures?
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth.
Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
How can one 'put away' a wicked person from himself if he doesn't judge him? Of course, one does not judge the person, but the fruit, at least insomuch as he determines whether the person is a seeker and a true believer.
Yet, to make this a little confusing:
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
So where is the compromise. That is why we are to pray for wisdom, and not shooot off at the mouth. (That is not stated sarcastically, but practically.)
1Co 4:4 For I know nothing [of] myself [i.e. on my own as though I made it up]; yet am I not hereby justified [in that] he that judgeth me is the Lord.
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Michael Harrison
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You keep 'setting this up' for the opportunity to accuse. Who is in His judgment? You are a troubled soul fond.
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Michael Harrison
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If there is any 'doubtful' disputing, it is on your part. You are doing the doubting.
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Michael Harrison
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What I am talking about Fond IN Him, is 'peace, which passeth understanding.' As long, however, as one 'reacts', when he/she is cut, whether he/she correctly perceives what is said or not, he or she hasn't found it! This is paramount.
And there can be no peace in the believer until a certain pinnacle is reached. It doesn't mean that one is not saved if he/she does not comprehend things the way someone else claims to. But one might be missing the understanding that HE died, spilled precious blood, to give the one. And in no way is the commentary of another meant to be insulting. It just sounds that way because satan gets ahold of it before it reaches the understanding of the hearer. It is a sermon in itself.
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Found in Him
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Reminding everyone of the tittle of this post.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Michael Harrison
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Fond: It is a good thing I am not on trial. Yes or no, is not my forte! It only plays into the hands of the painter who would portray someone according to his or her devisive intent, whether it represents the person faithfully or not. That is the kind of world we live in. Treacherous!
Now, the question is whether you know the Lord the way "HE" wants you to. Selah! Does HE live in you as HE does in me? Scripture will point that out. But one has to face it 'head on'. No one does that.
And that brings up something else: Just because Jesus abides in us, does not mean that we are abiding in Him. And if we are not abiding in Him, we are "grieving the Spirit whereunto we are sealed." But abiding in Him takes something that one has to 'seek' for. That is the exhortation. One is not abiding just because he/she got saved.
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Michael Harrison
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Bluefrog, I thought you knew the scriptures?
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth.
Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
How can one 'put away' a wicked person from himself if he doesn't judge him. Of course, one does not judge the person, but the fruit.
Yet, to make this a little confusing:
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
So where is the compromise. That is why we are to pray for wisdom, and not shooot off at the mouth. (That is not stated sarcastically, but practically.)
1Co 4:4 For I know nothing [of] myself [i.e. on my own as though I made it up]; yet am I not hereby justified [in that] he that judgeth me is the Lord.
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Found in Him
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Michael,
Just one question.
Does Jesus live in me just like He lives in you?
yes or no please.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Michael Harrison
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I think you have just judged Paul! I would leave it at that, but I have to say that in Hebrews it says to "Exhort one another daily, lest ye be hardened in sin." There is a profound reason why this was said. Otherwise everyone would accept the 'status-quo'. And you have been around for three days or so, and you already feel free to 'do' exactly what you are accusing another of, even if it looks or sounds 'kinder and gentler'. Perhaps you studied under Saul Alinsky?
The other mention I would make is that Jesus told Peter, "Feed my sheep." What do we think Peter did when he came across someone like you, who sounds like sweetness and light, and douses the voice of spiritual reason??
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bluefrog
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God Himself does not propose to judge a man/woman until he/she is dead, so why should we?
Some minds are like concrete, thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
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Found in Him
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Afternoon Bro Bluefrog,
God knows it's hard not to want to push back ignorant, arrogant, Holier than thou speech.
We are not idiots but God's people...that is who and what we are (By His Grace). Anyone that opposes that can deal with Jesus' "tough love"!
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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bluefrog
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FOUND IN HIM...Subject: doubtful disputations.
Obviously, I am in total agreeance with you.
To continue in debate with this person is to encourage more such contraversy, me thinks?
Just in case you don't know, One In Christ is a nice person with logical thoughts and information to share which also, me thinks.
I sure am glad you choose not to share your story last spoke of here. I would hate to think what some might do with it.
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Found in Him
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Found in Him,
I am trying to understand where you are coming from. I do believe there can be a distinction between "disagreements"(to have a differing opinion) and "doubtful disputations"(striving against,quarreling angrily). If we look at it like a marriage, then we know that there will be times of disagreements. How we work through those disagreements will be a key to growth and learning. But if "disagreements" move on to "doubtful disputations" that is when we are in danger of dissention(divorce). We Christians, as a whole, should keep in remembrance that our parts all need each other.......towards the same goal. That is why we should not allow disagreements to turn to doubtful disputations, which then can result in dissention. I do believe that there does have to be a unified agreement that we all fall back onto the Word of God as our anchor. When disagreements arise, and they will, both sides need to be patient with each other as they present their sides and explain why they believe what they believe. I no longer look at everything in scripture the way that I did before I started fellowhipping with the Christians on this site. Some of my beliefs have become stronger, while some of my other beliefs have completely changed. If we can express strong disagreements without becoming offensive, I believe that we all can learn much from each other.
Anyways, on another note........I was reading one of your earlier posts, Found in Him, and I noticed that you said that you almost took your life 20 yrs. ago. Could you share with us a little of that testimony, please?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Hi Daniel,
I hear what you are saying about the patience thing, but where do you draw the line? I have seen what these LORDING over the flock self appointed shepherds can do to the church. Especially to the young in the Lord.
I believe in calling it as you see it and being real. It is DANGEROUS to think that you have the edge of understanding over God's people and thereby judge them. He can't even back up what he says with scripture. It is confusion and endless strife.
Lord I pray for this situation. I anger inside because of what this strife can do to the weak and those who come here that may not know you. We are your people that are called to be witnesses of Your glory. Please forgive me because I fall short and am not perfect myself. Please do not let Your people here on this site continue to be torn down or accused of not knowing you. I pray for the root of the problem to be corrected and silenced and for the confusion to end. As we humble ourselves before You.
On the suicide note-- I have no problem sharing my testimony-- but not in this post. Jesus is Life, TRUTH and Lord of all-- Praise HIM!
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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oneinchrist
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Hi again Found in Him,
I am trying to understand where you are coming from. I do believe there can be a distinction between "disagreements"(to have a differing opinion) and "doubtful disputations"(striving against,quarreling angrily). If we look at it like a marriage, then we know that there will be times of disagreements. How we work through those disagreements will be a key to growth and learning. But if "disagreements" move on to "doubtful disputations" that is when we are in danger of dissention(divorce). We Christians, as a whole, should keep in remembrance that our parts all need each other.......towards the same goal. That is why we should not allow disagreements to turn to doubtful disputations, which then can result in dissention. I do believe that there does have to be a unified agreement that we all fall back onto the Word of God as our anchor. When disagreements arise, and they will, both sides need to be patient with each other as they present their sides and explain why they believe what they believe. I no longer look at everything in scripture the way that I did before I started fellowhipping with the Christians on this site. Some of my beliefs have become stronger, while some of my other beliefs have completely changed. If we can express strong disagreements without becoming offensive, I believe that we all can learn much from each other.
Anyways, on another note........I was reading one of your earlier posts, Found in Him, and I noticed that you said that you almost took your life 20 yrs. ago. Could you share with us a little of that testimony, please?
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Found in Him
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27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret?
GOD HAS APPOINTED leaders and IF you are not one WHY instruct God's people? BE CAREFUL FRIEND.
WHO appointed you a judge over HIS FLOCK?
WHY continue to look down on the children of God and attempt to Shepherd HIS FLOCK?
The ground is level at the foot of the cross!
I am here on this board for fellowship with the believers...IF you are not APPOINTED to lead or instruct the children of God, The children of God ARE GONNA KNOW IT!
I recommend humbling oneself before a LIVING and VERY HOLY GOD.
God is NOT the author of confusion!
I love each and every one of you here on this board. I desire your fellowship and enjoy the edification that you have imputed into my life in just a few short days.
However, I won't put up with the dissension of one that I see here. I will call it out. It is sin and confusion.
Ignorance or not-- it's sin.
God is judge, Shepherd and ruler of His people. He desires unity, peace and love among the brethren.
Jesus help us for there are those who do not know you who visit this board, Why Lord, would they want to be a part of this?
Please stop this Lord, In Jesus name I pray.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Found in Him
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Can I get a witness???????????
Copied and pasted maybe, BUT I HAVE HAD IT with a problem person on this board.
In Romans 14:9 Paul reminded us that Christ died and lived again for this very purpose, that He might be Lord of all God's people, whether dead or living. So we see, in the "Spirit led life," Christ uses us and we must make no provision for the "doubtful disputations" of the flesh. Such things just hinder Christ from working in us. This judging of each other in matters of opinion is completely outside our realm of activity as vessels of God's mercy. We are led to love one another and to make no provision for human judgment of the opinions of others.
"Why do you judge your brother?" asked Paul. Why do you regard your brother with contempt? The Spirit leads us to love even our enemies. The Spirit certainly does not lead us to set at nought our brother. Don't we know that we are all "in the same boat?" Don't we know that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God? Don't we know that we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God, having earned for ourselves in these sorts of purely human pursuits (such as "doubtful disputations") the wrath of God? Don't we know that we are all without excuse when we try to stand in the flesh, in our old man of sin? "For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall give praise to God." So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God. (Romans 14:11-12).
We must not wait until the judgment to bow our knees and praise God. We must be doing that now. Don't we know that when we engage in "doubtful disputations" about the opinions of men that we are not bowing our knees to God and we are not giving praise to God. In such disputes we are outside the path of the "Spirit led life." The message of Romans, indeed the message of the whole Bible, is to bow the knee to God beforehand, now, voluntarily, in our lives; give praise to God now with our lives by letting the Spirit lead us.
If we give way in the flesh to such things as "doubtful disputations" in human judgments of each other, we are right back under law again. If we continue in the fleshly, human way, we will finally bow our knees to God anyway, and we will praise God anyway, but then it will be too late. Do we want to live only in the flesh, only for ourselves, to be judged by God's law? We are doomed if we have to stand before God' judgment seat that way. We will be without excuse and have no reward but the wrath of God. But if we have "put on" Jesus Christ and have made no provision for the flesh, when we stand before the judgment seat of God we will have an Advocate, Jesus Christ to speak for us. We will say (if we dare to say anything), "I am not my own; I belong to Him."
"(13) Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way. (14) I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. (15) For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died." Romans 14:13-15.
In Romans 14:13 Paul turned his discussion to the effect of "doubtful disputations" on the consciences of Christians. The consciences of individual Christians are almost always involved in "doubtful disputations" based on human judgments. How do consciences become involved in such things? Paul said, "Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this - not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way ... to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean."
Sometimes the judging of one another's opinions results in placing a "stumbling block in a brother's way. Because of the disputation a Christian may be induced to accept something of which he is not fully convinced. He may be induced to take a course which violates his conscience. The urging of one to violate his conscience is tantamount to placing a stumbling block in his way. Only God has a right to place "stumbling blocks" before people. Only God has the wisdom and ability to bring about good results through the use of "stumbling blocks." It is always sinful for a Christian to place a "stumbling block" or to cause another to violate his conscience.
In Romans 14:14 Paul's reference to things that were considered "unclean" seems to indicate that the problem of "eating" indeed may have involved food which some Christians considered "unclean" and, therefore, considered unfit to eat. Some Jewish Christians may have considered pork to be unclean while Gentile Christians did not. Other Christians may have considered meat offered as sacrifice in idol worship, yet later sold on the market, to be unclean and unfit to eat.
Our attitude toward our brethren should be determined by our Lord's attitude toward us. Christ's love for us does not allow Him to hurt us. That is, all His actions toward us work together for our good. He died for all of us. Our "walk" should be according to love for our brethren resulting in all our actions working together only for the good of the brethren.
LET US BUILD UP ONE ANOTHER AND NOT TEAR DOWN THE WORK OF GOD. Romans 14:16 - 15:6.
"(16) Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; (17) for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (18) For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. (19) So then let us pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. (20) Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean; but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. (21) It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. (22) The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. (23) But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin." Romans 14:16-23.
The effect of "doubtful disputations" on the consciences of Christians was taken very seriously by Paul. It was of great importance to prevent the consciences of people from "being seared". In Romans 14:14 Paul said, To him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." In this Paul spoke to the one who violates his own conscience. It is sinful for him to do so. Then in Romans 14:2021 Paul said, "All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles."
In this Paul spoke to the one who may cause another to violate his conscience. It is sinful to cause another to violate his conscience. The evil effect of conscience violation was brought out in Romans 14:23, "He who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith, and whatever is not from faith is sin." Disputations about human opinions can bring about condemnation of a person. A person can be lost because of the effect on him of such disputes over human opinions.
Now the conscience is not an absolute authority to give us the last word on what is right or wrong. The conscience must be trained and influenced by external things. Paul taught in this Roman letter that God gave the conscience to people as a tool for good and that God gave the conscience its first original training to start us on the right way! In Romans 2:15 Paul said that the consciences of all people have been taught by what God has written on their hearts and otherwise made evident to them. God uses the conscience in bringing people to a knowledge of sin, and to convict them, and to lead them to know that they need to be freed from law, that they need mercy. The conscience, then, is most important in leading a person initially to Christ as well as in the subsequent leading of the person's new life by the Holy Spirit.
Paul, himself, was at one time a persecutor of Christians, which, of course, was sinful. However, we have been told in Acts 23:1 that, even in Paul's sinful persecution of Christians, Paul lived in good conscience. He was convinced at that time that what he was doing was right, even though it was not actually right. Later in Paul's life, in Romans 9:1, Paul said that his conscience bore him witness in the Holy Spirit. Thus we see that Paul's conscience was "retrained" by the Holy Spirit. It was possible for God to retrain Paul's conscience and to use Paul as a special Apostle because he had never "seared it (his conscience) as with a hot iron." (I Timothy 4:2). Had Paul repeatedly violated his conscience at any time in his life it might have become "seared" and made him useless for further use by God.
In Romans 13:5 Paul said that the conscience must not be violated, that some things must be done for conscience sake. The conscience trained by the Holy Spirit will help the Christian to walk on the right path. So Paul admonished the Roman Christians not to violate and "sear" anyone's conscience, but to let every conscience be trained by the Spirit. Then the Christian was enabled to follow the Holy Spirit's lead without doubting. Isn't that something of what Paul meant when he said in Romans 14:5, "Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind." And again in Romans 14:23 Paul said, "But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin." The conscience has a part in establishing a person's faith. When a person violates his conscience, he cannot be walking in faith towards God.
Paul has made it clear that there is a path of progress in the Christian life for developing and training the conscience. The conscience is never fully trained. As it gets better and better trained by the word of God's Spirit, the actions of the Christian life change to reflect the new conscience. The Christian may abstain from certain foods at first because his conscience will not allow him to eat them. But later, through walking as the Spirit leads, the Christian learns better -- that all foods may be taken with thanksgiving -- then his conscience becomes better trained and he can start eating without sin. But at all times the Christian must follow the direction of the conscience so that all things may be done without doubting, and so that all things may be done in faith.
Paul has made it clear that the conscience is God-given to help keep us in the faith. When we doubt, it is the conscience that stimulates the doubt. When we go ahead with an action even though we have been stijmulated to doubt that we ought to do it, then the conscience accuses us of wrong doing. If we are fully convinced that the action is right, then we do not doubt ant the conscience defends the action. Paul said in Romans 2:15 that this is how the conscience served the Gentiles and led them in the proper direction toward God. The message of Romans is that salvation is by faith. (Romans 1:17). The gospel of Christ produces faith in us by training our consciences. Then our consciences help us to accept God's gift of faith and to keep us in that faith. This is important for whatever is not from faith is sin.
Jesus said in Matthew 21:21, If you have faith, and do not doubt, you shall be able to "move mountains". God wants to lead us to "move mountains." The tasks He gives us in the Spirit-led life are, in the eyes of the world, like the moving of mountains. If we are to let Christ work in us to move mountains, we must let the Spirit lead us in a life like that described by Paul here in the 14th chapter of Romans, where we allow God to use us all, even we who are weak in faith.
In Romans 14:15 Paul said that judgments about a Christian's opinions may cause that Christian to be hurt, and the one doing the judging may no longer be "walking according to love." Actually a Christian may be "destroyed" by disputations concerning opinions. Paul went on to say in Romans 14:15, "Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died." The warning seems to intimate that "doubtful disputations" may drive some from the church causing them to reject Christ.
In fact, Paul went on in Romans 14:16 to say that Christians should not let opinions considered good by some to be spoken of among themselves as evil opinions. Why? In Romans 14:17 Paul explained, "For the kingdom of God (the church) is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." The righteousness of God cannot be exhibited in the lives of Christians in the church unless peace and joy in the Holy Spirit prevails. Paul went on to say in Romans 14:18, "For he who in this wlay serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men." In other words, Christ is served and God accepts the service of Christians who are at peace among themselves, who do not hurt one another in disputes concerning opinions.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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