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Author
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Topic: A SOLEMN AGREEMENT
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yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
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posted
Great post and insight Eden! I could not have said it better.
Brother Stams writings has a hint of dual-covenant theology, which i believe to be false.
Jews are not saved one way and the Gentiles another way. There is only one gospel and one way for both Jew and Gentile.
The gospel was and is even to this day "to the Jew first and then the Gentile." The message is the same, no "New" program as Stam reports.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Hello, WildB. Thank u for posting C.R. Stam's writings. Cornelius Stam said quote:
The Apostle Paul, referring to his journey to Jerusalem to tell the apostles and elders there about the good news that had been committed to him, says:
"And I went up by revelation and COMMUNICATED TO THEM THAT GOSPEL WHICH I PREACH AMONG THE GENTILES, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain... And when James, Cephas [Peter] and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, THEY GAVE TO ME AND BARNABAS THE RIGHT HANDS OF FELLOWSHIP, that we should go unto the heathen [Gentiles, nations], and they unto the Circumcision [Israel]" (Gal. 2:2-9).
Stam's insertion of "Israel" after "cicumcision" hopefully does not mean the same as the "land of Israel", because by the 1st century, the Jews of Judah and also Israelites of the northern kingdom, who were the circumcision, were everywhere in 1st century geography of the Middle East.
So if Peter went to the circumcision, Peter also went to places like Babylon where there was a large Jewish community left over from the Babylonian captivity.
But Paul also went to the circumcision at first:
Acts 17:10
And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night to Berea: who, coming there, went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Acts 18:19
And he {Paul} came to Ephesus and left them there: but he {Paul) himself entered into the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews.
So Paul also went first to the circumcision wherever he went.
Cornelius Stam further said quote:
Here, by solemn agreement, Peter, James and John promised publicly to confine their ministry to Israel
No, Peter, James and John promised to confirm their ministry to the circumcision, NOT to Israel, as Stam interposes.
Stam continued quote:
... while Paul went to the Gentiles with his "gospel of the grace of God."
This is striking in view of the fact that the twelve, not Paul, had originally been sent into all the world.
I don't see why this is striking since every Christian is basically "sent into all the world"[/b]:
Matthew 28
18 And Jesus spoke to them, saying, All power is given to Me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and he Holy Spirit.
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you ...
Stam continued quote:
Were they all out of the will of God in making this agreement? By no means! Subsequent revelation proves that they were all very much in the will of God and that with the rejection of Christ God had ushered in a new program.
What was the new program? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Stam continued quote:
In the light of these Scriptures it is difficult to understand how anyone can argue that Paul's ministry was merely a perpetuation of that of the twelve, or that "the gospel of the kingdom" and "the gospel of the grace of God" are identical.
Uhh, the gospel of the grace of God and the "gospel of the kingdom" are NOT identical???
Lastly, Stam said quote:
If the above passage teaches anything clearly ... it teaches the unique character of Paul's apostleship and message.
Both Paul and Peter went to the circumcision. Probably ALL Jewish disciples who had become Christian believers, as well as those from the Dispersion, first all went to the circumcision.
But Paul did reach a point where he said, "Henceforth I go to the Gentiles", but even after Paul had said that, Paul still entered the synagogues first, even after saying he was from now on "going to the Gentiles":
Acts 18
5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
6 But when they {the Jews} opposed themselves and blasphemed, he {Paul) shook his raiment and said to them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go to the Gentiles.
But Paul thus also went first to the circumcision.
Stam continued quote:
The Apostle devotes almost two chapters of his letter to the Galatians to the fact that he had not received his message from the twelve, but rather had communicated to the twelve.
He stresses the fact that those who had first been sent to all nations, "beginning at Jerusalem," had now, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, agreed to turn over their Gentile ministry to him that he might proclaim far and wide "the gospel of the grace of God," as found in Eph. 2:8,9 and Rom. 3:24.
Regarding the part I bolded, where does it say in the Bible that "those who had been sent from Jerusalem at the first" had now "turned over their ministry to Paul"?
love, Eden
"WildB, please do not erase this Topic"
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Wild B,
I think you are just one step shy of accusing Peter of preaching a "works" based gospel.
If you see water in this verse then you do not understand.........
Acts 2:38 "Repent, and be baptized every one of you IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
A man could be baptized in the desert for that matter. Water or no water ,it is still the heart response that God looks at........have you come to repentance and are you ready to be a follower of Jesus?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
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posted
1Cr 10:1
MOREOVER, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
1Cr 10:2
all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1Cr 10:3
all ate the same spiritual food,
1Cr 10:4
and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
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The fire and the cloud was the Holy Spirit that guided the people. It is the same Holy Spirit that calls us today unto repentance.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
"Paul and baptism--
Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that as many as were baptized in Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
If you see water in these verses that you post you Don,t understand the word.
Please explain this verse.
1Cor.10
[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Hi Wild B,
In comparing the calling of Paul with the apostles you probably would not get much disagreement as to the fact that Paul was to reach a broader audience.......but where you will meet resistance is in proposing that the message itself that spread was any different.......such as in the theory that Paul and the apostles were spreading two completely different and unique gospels.
In a more broad and general sense the message that they all carried could not be different. It had to be about Jesus, the Son of God. Salvation is not without repentance and faith in Jesus. One should not come to the conclusion that the message is different on the basis that the use of terminology(Paul vs. Peter for example) is not exactly the same throughout. Because Peter says "Repent, be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost in one instance and Paul says "If you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you shall be saved" in another instance, that does not constitute a difference in the overall message, but what it does show us is that not everyone has to use the exact same terminology when witnessing.
I believe that there are at least two passages from Jesus, Paul, and Peter on the subjects of repentance, believing, confession, and baptism. That should be enough to convince anyone of the importance of them all.
Jesus and repentance--
Luke 13:3 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
Mark 1:15 and saying, "The time is fullfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.
Jesus and believing--
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent
Luke 8:12 "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Jesus and confessing--
Matthew 10:32 "Therefore, whoever confesses Me before men, him I also will confess before My Father who is in heaven.
Luke 12:8 "Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God.
Jesus and baptism--
Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned
Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Peter and repentance--
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Peter and believing--
Acts 10:43 "To Him all the prophets witness that, through His Name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."
1 Peter 2:7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone....
Peter and confessing--1Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Acts 4:18-19 So they called them and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.But Peter and John answered and said to them, "Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge.
Peter and baptism--
1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Acts 2:38 ...and be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ.....
Paul and repentance--
Acts 20:21 "testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance towards God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
Paul and believing--
Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.
1 Timothy 1:16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
Paul and confessing--
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus....
Philippians 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father.
Paul and baptism--
Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that as many as were baptized in Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
We see repentance,believing,confession, and baptism as common threads woven throughout the gospels, books of Paul, Peter, and others.
What specifically does Mr. Stam propose as the differences between the supposed two(the "gospel of grace" and the "gospel of the kingdom" gospels?
Please do not tell me that one is "grace" and the other is "works." If baptism is equated with works, then why wouldnt "confess with the mouth" also be equated with works?"
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
by Cornelius R. Stam
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The Apostle Paul, referring to his journey to Jerusalem to tell the apostles and elders there about the good news that had been committed to him, says:
"And I went up by revelation and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM THAT GOSPEL WHICH I PREACH AMONG THE GENTILES, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain... And when James, Cephas [Peter] and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, THEY GAVE TO ME AND BARNABAS THE RIGHT HANDS OF FELLOWSHIP, that we should go unto the heathen [Gentiles, nations], and they unto the Circumcision [Israel]" (Gal. 2:2-9).
Here, by solemn agreement, Peter, James and John promised publicly to confine their ministry to Israel while Paul went to the Gentiles with his "gospel of the grace of God." This is striking in view of the fact that the twelve, not Paul, had originally been sent into all the world.
Were they all out of the will of God in making this agreement? By no means! Subsequent revelation proves that they were all very much in the will of God and that with the rejection of Christ God had ushered in a new program.
In the light of these Scriptures it is difficult to understand how anyone can argue that Paul's ministry was merely a perpetuation of that of the twelve, or that "the gospel of the kingdom" and "the gospel of the grace of God" are identical.
If the above passage teaches anything clearly, it teaches the unique character of Paul's apostleship and message. The Apostle devotes almost two chapters of his letter to the Galatians to the fact that he had not received his message from the twelve, but rather had communicated to the twelve.
He stresses the fact that those who had first been sent to all nations, "beginning at Jerusalem," had now, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, agreed to turn over their Gentile ministry to him that he might proclaim far and wide "the gospel of the grace of God," as found in Eph. 2:8,9 and Rom. 3:24.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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