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Author
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Topic: Christians and drinking
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shadowmaker
Advanced Member
Member # 3696
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posted
Romans 14:21 says alot.
All I ve to say is dont argue with him and pray for him. Thats the reason there are going to be alot of religious people in hell. Being a Christian is "being christ like". I dont recall anywhere in the Bible that Jesus got drunk. Jesus didnt just associate with his followers, he hung with the wicked and sinners and loved them.
And dont even get me started on the Catholics and their greed. They are the most money hungry group I ve ever seen in my life. But thats another discussion in itself.
If you believe getting drunk is wrong and read in the Bible where it says this. Stick to your guns, and pray for those who do get drunk.
Posts: 272 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
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posted
If some one likes to have a drink, let it be so unto him. But the warning is there so that they may learn that is better to drunk with the Spirit of God that been drunk in your own carnal nature... "toast"
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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trafield
Advanced Member
Member # 5358
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posted
This topic has been clearly addressed in Scripture:
Romans, Chapter 14
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "
12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by OlympicGold:
Hello,
I gave up drinking today after hearing our preacher talk about it. I'm not a heavy drinker to begin with but to cut it out of my life completely will be a chore.
Anyways, I have a Catholic friend who is saying the whole idea that Baptists have for not drinking is ludicrious. He references one scene from John 2:10 during the wedding day at Cena where Jesus was there and everybody was getting drunk. My friend then makes the argument that drinking and Christians had been around for 2 thousand years and it wasn't until the last couple of hundreds years where Baptists came on the scene and said Christians should not drink.
So for someone like me who is giving up drinking for God according to some verses in Proverbs and other books, how do I argue that verse in John where everybody is drinking and apparently during that time everybody got drunk?
Just let the Word of God speak unto thine heart. You have done well my brother in Christ for this desire to be pure do not just come from you but that God is working in you to do and to will of His good pleasure in you.
Drunkenness
Forbidden
Eph_5:18; For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Caution against
Luk_21:34; And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Is a work of the flesh
Gal_5:21; Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Is debasing
Isa_28:8; For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
Is inflaming
Isa_5:11; Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
Overcharges the heart
Luk_21:34; And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Takes away the heart
Hos_4:11; Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart.
Leads To Poverty
Pro_21:17; Pro_23:21;
Strife
Pro_23:29; Pro_23:30;
Woe and sorrow
Pro_23:29; Pro_23:30;
Error
Isa_28:7;
Contempt of God's works
Isa_5:12;
Scorning
Hos_7:5;
Rioting and wantonness
Rom_13:13;
The wicked addicted to
Dan_5:1-4;
False teachers often addicted to
Isa_56:12;
Folly of yielding to
Pro_20:1;
Avoid those given to
Pro_23:20; 1Co_5:11;
DENUNCIATIONS AGAINST
Those given to
Isa_5:11; Isa_5:12; Isa_28:1-3;
Those who encourage
Hab_2:15;
Excludes from heaven
1Co_6:10; Gal_5:21;
Punishment of
Deu_21:20; Joe_1:5; Joe_1:6; Amo_6:6; Amo_6:7; Mat_24:49-51;
Exemplified
Noah
Gen_9:21;
Nabal
1Sa_25:36;
Uriah
2Sa_11:13;
Elah
1Ki_16:9; 1Ki_16:10;
Benhadad
1Ki_20:16;
Belshazzar
Dan_5:4;
Corinthians
1Co_11:21;
--------------------
Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
unregistered
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posted
Denomination
DENOMINATION, n.
1. The act of naming.
2. A name or appellation; a vocal sound, customarily used to express a thing or a quality, in discourse; as, all man fall under the denomination of sinners; actions fall under the denomination of good or bad.
3. A class, society or collection of individuals, called by the same name; as a denomination of christians.
(Websters 1828)
Division is a natural outgrowth of man, which he then denominates, or names.
I cn't fighre out if you two are studying Scripture or not. Have you asked your friend to show you the Scriptures where non Jews are priests?
But really, EVERY division is wrong. There is one God and one is unity.
Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Tell me then, is this list of unifying oneness down here on the earth? Or can we only find this listed unity far above all heavens?
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.
The members of this church find their hope and calling not on the earth, but with the risen Lord:
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
Catholic Catechism
816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsist it in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267
The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268
824 United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. "All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God."292 It is in the Church that "the fullness of the means of salvation"293 has been deposited. It is in her that "by the grace of God we acquire holiness."294
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403
883 "The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, as its head." As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff."404
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The Greek word used for rock (petra) is played against Peter (petros). Some use this passage to teach that Peter was the foundation stone of the church, that he had a primacy among the apostles, and that he became bishop of Rome. The verse will scarcely bear the first of these propositions, and certainly none of the others. Peter may be meant by the rock, but he was not the exclusive foundation.
The twelve-fold foundation of the apostles of the church:
Ephesians 2:
19
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
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And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
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In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
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In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Rev. 21:
14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
This seems borne out by the fact that the words spoken unto Peter in Matt. 16:18, were spoken to all of the disciples in Matt. 18:
Matt. 18:
18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
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Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
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For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
The rock or foundation of the church is the confession (ultimately the doctrine) of the apostles, which became normative for the true church.
The word church (Greek ekklesia), means literally “ a chosen or called out assembly”. Thus the use of the word as a technical term for an assembly or group of believers in Christ was quite natural. It was not viewed as an external organization, denomination, or hierarchical system. The New Testament Church is a local autonomous congregation or an assembly which is a church in and of itself. John writes to 7 churches, in His Revelation, not to one.
Scofield commentary:
16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Peter
There is the Greek a play upon the words, "thou art Peter petros-- literally 'a little rock', and upon this rock Petra I will build my church." He does not promise to build His church upon Peter, but upon Himself, as Peter is careful to tell us
(1 Peter 2:4-9)
2:4 Coming to Him, a living stone--rejected by men but chosen and valuable to God--
2:5 you yourselves, as living stones, are being built into a spiritual house for a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
2:6 For it stands in Scripture: Look! I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and valuable cornerstone, and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame!
2:7 So the honor is for you who believe; but for the unbelieving, The stone that the builders rejected-- this One has become the cornerstone, and
2:8 A stone that causes men to stumble, and a rock that trips them up. They stumble by disobeying the message; they were destined for this.
2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His possession, so that you may proclaim the praises of the One who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
church:
2 (Greek - ajpovllumi (ek=="out of," kaleo =="to call"), an assembly of called out ones). The word is used of any assembly; the word itself implies no more, as, e.g., the town-meeting at Ephesus Acts 19:39 and Israel, called out of Egypt and assembled in the wilderness Acts 7:38. Israel was a true "church," but not in any sense the N.T. church--the only point of similarity being that both were "called out" and by the same God. All else is contrast.
Following are several of the doctrinal statements made on Justification at the council of Trent. After each Canon are scriptures that contradict that Canon.
Finally, you will see the word "anathema" used many times by the Council. This means that those who disagree with the doctrines of this Council are cursed. In Gal. 1:8-9, the word "anathema" is used. The curse must come from God. Therefore, we conclude that according to Roman Catholicism, anyone who disagrees with the following Canons are cursed of God. The Roman Catholic church excommunicates those under anathema. In other words, excommunication means being outside the Christian church. Being outside the church means you are not saved.
In spite of what Catholicism states, the Bible speaks differently. Following each Canon is a list of appropriate scriptures countering the Catholic position.
1. CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20).
B. "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).
C. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
D. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
E. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
F. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).
G. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5).
2. CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"
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"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" John 1:12).
A. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
B. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
C. "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself" (Heb. 7:25-27).
D. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1:12).
3. Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."
.
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
A. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
4. Canon 23: "lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,- except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema."
.
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
A. "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
B. "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28).
C. "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 5:21).
D. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 John 2:19).
E. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13).
•
Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."
. "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:1-3).
A. "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law" (Gal. 5:1-3).
•
Canon 30: "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."
. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
A. "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Col. 2:13-14).
• Canon 33: "If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.
. This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned.
While the apostasy of Rome wrested power for the papacy, and established the monarchy falsely using Peter's name, there was a group of believers following the only true head of the Church, the Lord Jesus Christ. These were the Baptists, and prior to the reformation, horrifically persecuted by Rome's bloody corruption.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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OlympicGold
Community Member
Member # 4875
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posted
Here is an email response my friend sent me. He is Catholic as you can tell and just attempts to torch the Baptist faith. So baptists, your time to speak is now:)
MY FRIEND'S EMAIL TO ME BELOW:
You are an idiot. A Christian believes that Jesus is the Savior. His disciples believed he was the Savior, so therefore they are Christians.
The point of the story is not to tell you that drinking is OK. The point of the story is to show you Jesus's miracles.
However, the wedding consisted of people having fun and enjoying themselves. Part of enjoying themselves was to have wine and dancing. They ran out of wine. Jesus made wine. In the Biblical days they drank the best wine first and saved the bad wine for last, because everyone had been drinking and were drunk and did not care about the quality of wine anymore. The man did not understand why they saved the best wine for last.
Now, all I am saying is that the Baptist religion put words into Jesus's mouth. They are constantly making things up. Don't you think Jesus would have said drinking is a sin, instead of making wine. Jesus came to change the Old Testament. In the old testament, God was an angry and jealous God. The old testament said an eye for an eye, Jesus said, turn the other cheek. The old Testament stressed the Ten Commandments, Jesus said the most important commandment is to Love Thy Lord Thy God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and Love your neighbor as yourself. It does not say love your neighbor as yourself only if they believe the same thing you do.
Drunkenness is bad, along with anything else done in excess. But, making up something stupid like the wine wasn't fermented is actually trying to play God. That is why the Baptist religion is pathetic. They find little quotes in the old testament or they misinterpret Jesus or even make up things if does not fit their beliefs. They completely threw out 2000 years of Christianity including books of the Bible. What if your pastor tells you that John is no longer a book of the Bible? Are you going to blindly believe him. That is what happened 1600 years ago. Look up Maccabees on the internet.
To sum it up, use your head. I don't know your pastor, but I bet he making a **** load of money and to me that is no sacrifice. A true sacrifice would be to take his money and give it to the needy.
Lastly, learn about the Catholic faith. Their views are every bit as conservative as the Baptists, if not more. Whether you believe in Catholicism or not, this religion is the only religion that dates back to Jesus's times, including 300 years before the Bible was put together. Jesus's own apostle, Peter, is the first pope. Look it up. Read the Bible verse where Jesus calls Peter the Rock and around him he would build his church and let no man break it up.
Posts: 15 | From: Plano, Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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epouraniois
unregistered
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quote:
Originally posted by OlympicGold:
So those who were drinking the wine were jews because Christians didn't exist at that time? Never thought about it that way. When was the Christian Church officially brought forth?
Also, one other question is that according to my friend people have been drinking for ages, including those who associated with Jesus. Then the Baptist denomination came around within the last several hundered years and denounced drinking. So for someone like me who is Baptist, how do I combat the argument that Baptists changed the history of what true Christians are all about?
thanks!
It sounds like your friend doesn't want to see you making personal imporvements to me.
The word Christian wasn't used when the Lord Jesus walked in the flesh, however there were about 120 who believed:
Act 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about a hundred and twenty,)
But the Lord Jesus said plainly He came not but for Israel. That was His responce to a non Jew who was in dire need of His help. What a tremendous testimony from the Lord as to His earthly calling. He also told His disciples to go not into the way of the gentiles.
The word gentiles is Greek, ethnos, and is also translated nations. Remeber, Peter was the first to speak to gentiles, and only did that one time. He told that man:
Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation
Peter had to have three visions before he would speak to a non Jew. And when he came back to Jerusalem, they held counsil against him. Basically, they were going to stone him to death for speaking to a non Jew.
Peter's responce to the counsil:
ct 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Actually wasn't it the Catholics who were hoarding the word of God and killing people who wanted to read it? Weren't those times called the dark ages>?
from the Companion Bible:
27. WINE.
There are eight Hebrew words translated wine. A careful observation of their use will tell us all that there is to be known on the subject.
I. Yayin, from the root yayan, to ferment, used of every sort of wine. The word occurs 142 time, and includes fermented wine of all kinds.
The first occurrence is :
Gen. 9:21. "Noah planted a vineyard and drank yayin and was drunken."
Gen. 14:18. "Melchizedek ... brought forth bread and wine."
1Sam. 25:36, 37. Nabal drank yayin and "was very drunken."
Isa. 28:1. "The drunkards of Ephraim ... are overcome (i.e. knocked down) with yayin."
Jer. 23:9. "I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom yayin hath overcome".
It is perfectly certain, therefore, from these passages, that yayin was fermented, and was intoxicating.
Yayin was also used for sacred purposes and for blessing.
Gen. 49:12. "His (Judah's) eyes shall be red with yayin, and his teeth white with milk."
Amos 9:13. "I will bring again the captivity of my people, and they shall plant vineyards and drink the yayin thereof." (v. 14 is No. V.)
Ecc. 9:7. "Drink thy yayin with a merry heart, for God now accepteth thy works."
The Nazarite, at the expiration of his vow, drank yayin. See Num. 6:13-20. It was used at the Feasts of Jehovah (Deut. 14:24-26), and was poured out as a drink-offering to Jehovah (Ex. 29:40. Lev. 23:13. Num. 15:5).
II. Tirosh, from yarash, to possess = must, or new wine, so called because it gets possession of the brain. It occurs thirty-four times in the Old Testament.
Hos. 4:11. "Whoredom and yayin and tirosh take away the heart" (i.e. they blunt the feelings, derange the intellect).
Some say that tirosh means grapes, and is used as solid food, because in Gen. 37:28 we read of "tirosh and corn". We might as well say that when we speak of "bread and water", that water is also a solid, because bread is a solid. On the contrary, "tirosh and corn" mean liquids and solids, by the figure of Synecdoche (of Genus), Ap. 6.
Prov. 3:10. "Thy presses shall burst out with tirosh."
Isa. 62:8. "The sons of the stranger shall not drink thy tirosh."
Joel 2:24. "The fats (vats) shall overflow with tirosh and oil."
Mic. 6:15. "Thou shalt tread ... tirosh, but shalt not drink yayin."
III. Chemer, from chamar, to ripen. Hence used of strong red wine. It occurs eight times.
Deut. 32:14. "The pure chemer of the grape."
Isa. 27:2, 3. "A vineyard of chemer. I the Lord do keep it".
Ezra 6:9. Cyrus and Artaxerxes commanded that chemer should be given to the people of Israel for the service of the God of Heaven.
The Rabbins called it neat wine, because, unmixed with water, it disturbs the head and brain.
IV. Shekar = strong drink (from shakar, to get drunk), a very intoxicating drink made from barley, honey, or dates.
Num. 28:7. "In the holy place shalt thou cause the shekar (strong wine) to be poured unto the Lord for a drink offering."
Deut. 14:-25, 26. "Thou ... shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose : and thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, of for yayin (wine), or for shekar (strong drink), or for whatsoever thy soul desireth : and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household".
V. 'Asis (from 'asas, to tread) new or sweet wine of the vintage year.
Isa. 49:26. "They shall be drunken with their own blood, as with 'asis (sweet wine)".
The drinking of this was held out by God as a blessing conferred by Him. Joel 3:17, 18. Amos 9:13.
VI. Sob'e, any kind of strong intoxicating drink : from sab'a, to drink to excess, become drunk : occurs twice.
Isa. 1:22. "Thy silver is become dross, thy sob'e (wine) mixed with water".
Hos. 4:18. "Their sob'e (drinking bout or carouse) is over" (A.V. their drink is sour (marg. gone). (R.V. marg. their carouse is over).
VII. Mimsak, mixed or spiced wine.
Prov. 23:30. "They that tarry long at the yayin; they that go to seek mimsak (mixed wine)."
Isa. 65:11. "That prepare a table for Fortune, and that fill up mingled wine (mimsak) unto Destiny" (R.V.).
VIII. Shemarim, from shamar, to keep, preserve, lay up; hence, old wine, purified from the lees and racked off.
Ps. 75:8. "but the shemarim (dregs), all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them."
Isa. 25:6. "Wines on the lees."
Zeph. 1:12. "I will ... punish the men that are settled on their shemarim (lees)".
Jer. 48:11. "Moab ... hath settled on his lees."
N.B. The word translated "flagons of wine" is 'ashishah, from 'ashash, to press; hence a hardened syrup made of grapes, a sweet cake of dried grapes or pressed raisins. It occurs in 2Sam. 6:19. 1Chron. 16:3. Song 2:5. Hos. 3:1.
With these data it will be seen that the modern expression, "unfermented wine", is a contradiction of terms. If it is wine, it must have fermented. If it has not been fermented, it is not wine, but a syrup.
Leaven is sour dough, and not wine. It is that which causes the fermentation. There can be no leaven after the process of fermentation has ceased.
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yahsway
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I just finished reading an interesting article called "The Lord's vineyard" at www.lionlamb.net on this very subject. Shalom
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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OlympicGold
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So those who were drinking the wine were jews because Christians didn't exist at that time? Never thought about it that way. When was the Christian Church officially brought forth?
Also, one other question is that according to my friend people have been drinking for ages, including those who associated with Jesus. Then the Baptist denomination came around within the last several hundered years and denounced drinking. So for someone like me who is Baptist, how do I combat the argument that Baptists changed the history of what true Christians are all about?
thanks!
Posts: 15 | From: Plano, Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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becauseHElives
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Questions and Answers
This series of articles contains studies on various topics, many of which were adapted from questions that I have received from people by e-mail.
If you have questions, comments, objections, etc., on anything concerning Christianity, please feel free to send them to me at dave@layhands.com, and I will reply by e-mail. As time permits and as the Lord leads, I might turn my reply into an article and then add it to my "Questions and Answers" series, so please check my home page periodically for the latest updates.
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Question:
"Is there any indication that Jesus drank alcohol? Can Christians drink alcohol and still operate in the power of the Holy Spirit?"
Answer:
When I was young in the Lord, it appeared to me that Christians who chose not to drink alcohol were more spiritually mature (in their words and actions) than Christians who do drink alcohol (even in moderation). Granted this was a generalization which was simply based on my personal observations, and it is not necessarily true for every Christian who chooses to drink or not to drink. However, this observation got me wondering about whether or not it is a sin for Christians to drink alcohol. When I studied what the New Testament says about this, I was surprised to find that Jesus and the apostles may have drunk wine.
However, whether Jesus and the apostles drank alcoholic wine or not, the Bible is very clear that drunkenness is a sin:
"Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy." (Romans 13:13)
"But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat." (1 Corinthians 5:11)
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21)
"Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit." (Ephesians 5:18)
"For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you. But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead." (1 Peter 4:3-5)
So the question is whether or not it is acceptable for modern Christians to drink alcohol in moderation, as long as we don't get drunk.
Before I became a Christian, I got drunk quite a few times in college. However, after I graduated from college I got saved, and I decided to drink alcohol only in moderation. I had the occasional beer or the occasional glass of wine with dinner. But as I grew in spiritual maturity and learned how to hear God's voice more clearly, it seemed that God was leading me to ask myself why I drank wine or beer at all. What was my motive? You see, whether or not drinking a little wine is a sin, God looks at the motives of our hearts (see 1 Chronicles 28:9, Proverbs 16:2, and 1 Corinthians 4:5, for example). I began to see that my only reason for drinking a little wine or beer was for that "buzz," because it was "relaxing." I didn't get roaring drunk, but I came to realize that when I started feeling that "buzz" from the alcohol then it meant that the alcohol was affecting me and that I was in the early stages of becoming drunk. So my only reason for drinking a little wine or beer was for the purpose of getting that mild "high," or that mild stage of drunkenness. When I realized that my motive for drinking wine or beer did not seem to be pure before the Lord, I made the choice to stop drinking alcohol, and I haven't had any beer or wine or other alcoholic drink for several years now. But don't get me wrong, I don't mind eating something in a restaurant that has a wine sauce, and I don't mind using something like mouthwash that has alcohol in it, and I would drink the cup of wine at communion if that's what my church served. It's my motives that God is looking at, and therefore I no longer drink alcohol for any kind of "feeling" (or for any other reason).
Even though there are some passages which might indicate that Jesus and the apostles possibly drank wine, consider that their motives were probably different than ours (for one thing, they did not have the wide variety of drinks to choose from that we have today). If Jesus and the apostles drank wine, surely they had much purer motives than we have, and surely they didn't drink it in order to get a "buzz" or to get relaxed and happy like we do! They had the true joy of the Holy Spirit, they didn't need the false joy from fermented spirits.
But what about Jesus' first miracle, where He turned water into wine at a wedding? (see John 2:1-11). Again, it's important to consider the motives for this miracle. Was Jesus saying, "Become My disciples, and we'll booze it up every day and party every night"? Was that His motive for turning water into wine? Isn't it more likely that there was some deeper spiritual or theological significance to this miracle? For example, Bible teachers sometimes point out that Moses (Israel's "deliverer") performed the miracle of turning water into blood (Exodus 7:20). Then they point out that Jesus (our Deliverer) performed the miracle of turning water into wine, wine being a symbol of His blood (Matthew 26:27-29). Also, The Bible Knowledge Commentary (Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.278) points out that the water in the six stone jars at that wedding was for the Jewish purification rites, and Jesus' miracle demonstrated a contrast between the old order of the Pharisees and the new way in Christ. The master of the banquet was surprised that the best wine was saved for last, which was unusual at a wedding. As this commentary says, "The significance of this miracle is that Christianity is an advance over Judaism. God has kept the best gift - His Son - until now." (p.278). Furthermore, the NIV Study Bible says that "John always refers to Jesus' miracles as "signs," a word emphasizing the significance of the action rather than the marvel [itself]" (p.2028, emphasis added). So when the apostle John described the miracle of turning water into wine (John 2:1-11), he was emphasizing that this miracle had spiritual significance. As John 2:11 tells us, Jesus did this miraculous sign in order to reveal His glory. So if we want to use Jesus' miracle of turning water into wine as a justification for drinking alcohol then we need to remember that there were deeper spiritual or theological principles which were the motives for this miracle. There were no Christians at this wedding because the Church had not been born yet, and we should be cautious about justifying our Christian behaviors (such as drinking alcohol) based on events which only concerned Jews who were still living under the Law of Moses.
There is a Scriptural principle that we have freedom in Christ, but notice that this does not mean that everything is beneficial for us in our spiritual growth and maturity:
""Everything is permissible for me"-- but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything." (1 Corinthians 6:12)
""Everything is permissible"-- but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive." (1 Corinthians 10:23)
"You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature [the flesh]; rather, serve one another in love." (Galatians 5:13)
Now, consider that there are numerous areas in our lives which God has to deal with us about. We would not be able to handle it if He showed us all of our flaws all at once, so He deals with only one or two issues at a time in our lives. This means that a Christian can probably drink alcohol and still operate in the power of the Holy Spirit while God works on other issues in that Christian's life. I'm not suggesting you do that, I'm just saying that God might deal with you about alcohol after He changes you in other areas first. However, when you start to become "interested" in this issue about whether or not Christians should drink alcohol, then maybe the Lord has started to work with you in this area. If you are a Christian who drinks alcohol, have you been "squirming" while reading this? If you are a Christian who drinks alcohol, has this article offended or upset you? If so, then consider that it might be because your conscience is trying to tell you something. God often speaks to us through our consciences (see my article called How to Hear the Voice of God), so we should obey what our consciences are telling us. Rationalizations such as, "I only drink alcohol because I like the taste," won't fool God if He begins to bother your conscience about drinking (even "moderate" or "social" drinking).
Conclusion
My suggestion would be that if you are a Christian who drinks alcohol, consider examining your motives carefully. Why do you drink? Is it so that you will "fit in" with the worldly people around you? If so, notice God's view of this:
"You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God." (James 4:4)
We should be very careful about trying to "fit in" with the worldly people around us, because the above passage says that if we choose to be friendly with the world's way of doing things then we are putting ourselves in the position of enemies of God!
Do you drink alcohol for the feeling it gives you? If so, that "feeling" means that the alcohol is affecting you, and therefore your body has reached the beginning stages of drunkenness. We have already seen God's view of drunkenness (see the passages above), so why would a Christian want to flirt with something which God condemns so strongly?
If you drink alcohol, I hope you don't think that I am condemning you, because I'm not (we shouldn't be condemning our brothers and sisters in Christ over issues like this - see chapter 14 of Romans, for example). I am not going to be judged by the things that you do, the Lord is only going to judge me based on the things that I do. So whether you choose to drink or not is none of my business. But I do care what happens to my brothers and sisters in the Lord, and I do want to help encourage you to continue growing more and more in spiritual maturity. That's why I want to help you to see that the Lord might begin to trouble your conscience about your drinking, and that the only way to grow in the Lord is to be obedient to Him. Notice how important it is for us to keep a clear conscience before God:
"So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man." (Acts 24:16)
"Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience." (Romans 13:5)
"My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me." (1 Corinthians 4:4)
"Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, in the holiness and sincerity that are from God. We have done so not according to worldly wisdom but according to God's grace." (2 Corinthians 1:12)
"The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith." (1 Timothy 1:5)
"Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith." (1 Timothy 1:18-19)
"They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience." (1 Timothy 3:9)
"I thank God, whom I serve, as my forefathers did, with a clear conscience, as night and day I constantly remember you in my prayers." (2 Timothy 1:3)
"How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!" (Hebrews 9:14)
"let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water." (Hebrews 10:22)
"Pray for us. We are sure that we have a clear conscience and desire to live honorably in every way." (Hebrews 13:18)
"But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander." (1 Peter 3:15-16)
It is very important that we keep a clear conscience before the Lord because that is one way in which He often guides us. So if you are a Christian who drinks alcohol, and you find that you are beginning to wonder if it's okay for Christians to drink (or if you have been "squirming" or getting upset while reading this), then God is probably dealing with you in your conscience about drinking. Simply obey Him and give it up. You'll be glad you did! Notice that I'm not saying that alcohol is evil or that we shouldn't be drinking, I'm simply saying that we should all be trying to honor God by obeying our consciences. My point is that God has dealt with me in my conscience about moderate drinking, and there are prominent Christians who also say that God has led them not to drink alcohol. Therefore, if you are a Christian who drinks alcohol (even in moderation), it is possible that God will begin to work with you in your conscience at some point about your drinking. If He does, then that's when you should obey Him and give it up.
Update (6/6/2004):
Based on a thorough examination of the Greek texts, the author of "Wine in the Bible: A Biblical Study on the Use of Alcoholic Beverages "provides interesting evidence that Jesus and the apostles never drank alcoholic wine, nor did they ever approve of alcohol in any form. This would mean that Christians have no Scriptural support for drinking any alcoholic drinks, even in moderation.
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/1.html
I hope this has been helpful, and may the Lord abundantly bless you as you study His Word!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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The "spirits" in the bottle if used for medicine Paul says its OK.
1Tim.5
[23] Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
But when it gets past this it can replace the filling of the Spirit of God because it deceptively mimics it.
Eph.5
1. [18] And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
excess = debauchery
Dictionary
de·bauch·er·y (dĭ-bô'chə-rē) pronunciation
n., pl. -ies.
1. Extreme indulgence in sensual pleasures; dissipation.
2. debaucheries Orgies.
Archaic. Seduction from morality, allegiance, or duty
Antonyms
Definition: immoral self-indulgence
Antonyms: benevolence, giving, mercifulness, unselfishness
Prov.23
[29] Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
[30] They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
[31] Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
[32] At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
Its ok to give a dieing soulder a stife one.
Prov.31
[6] Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish,
Just some of my thoughts....
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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epouraniois
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(yeah, this time they got drunk, but they always seemed to miss the mark, and it led to them crucifying thier own Messiah)
I think that anything which gets between me and the Lord a real problem.
Gal 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like
And such like are manifest the works of the flesh.
Eph 5:15
See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
Eph 5:16
Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Eph 5:17
Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
Eph 5:18
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord
Col 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Ye are the temple
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.
What about the member of this church?
Eph 1:22
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23
Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.
How is the inspired apostle exampled in this church? Which remember, is His body.
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church
()
Col 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
...()...
Col 3:1
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth
This church is being built upon, not into the apostles and prophets. To the Hebrews (ch5) he said they were dull of hearing and (ch6) needed to not again lay the same foundations but to grow into spiritual adulthood. But they were unable even for the receiving their own kingdom hope and calling. We surely fall prey to the same, as these things are written for our learning. So when John writes, he speaks of when Israel was still being spoken to in the same way they had for centuries, and even though they had the oracles of God, could quote the Scripture, they could did not see what they were to have learned. They killed their Messiah.
What was the symbol of wine to blood and what were the other symbols used in John, as regards that wedding wherein the Lord Christ Jesus turned water into wine?
But it can get really much deeper, deeper than we can possibly dig. What does water symbolise in the Bible? And isn't it true, that in John, we are reading of the same people as in the Old Testament? The very same people being given the message they said they were to receive? Think about the Old Testament, where the names told the future of Israel's people, and how everything about the Old Testament, as it pertains especially to Israel, is a story given by way of example. In fact, Hebrew itself is a language of picture words. The wine there is part of a Hebrew picture story the Hebrews there were brought up learning to recognize the OT prophecy which would tell Israel the Lord was with them, and in Johns story is being shown, among other things, that in the Lord there is plenty for everyone. His blood shed for all. They were to eat and drink truth to sustain them. But they missed the mark. Later, in Hebrews 6 Israel is told in so many words that they need to grow up and put away their picture books and continue on into spirirutal adulthood.
Most all of us need to better be able to acknowledge what is the hope of His calling. What is the hope of our calling. Calling is not only intimately assiciated with hope, but that hope and calling, as Israel's also is, calls us to continue on unto spiritual maturity. I think it is very difficult to leave the things of this world and receive all truth. In 1Co 10:13 we read, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man", and therefore we all have to become overcomers if we seek the best things the Lord has to give.
The Bible is all God's word. It's pretty big. It is much deeper than I can dig and I don't expect to get near to ever fully plumbing it's incredible depths, but I believe that it is every word which we can stand on, and that it is very difficult to see the larger view by looking at the details. Intead, I have found that details rather fall into their rightful place when we specifically do not build doctrine from say, only one verse, or one example. There is a larger view wherein each word fits in the place and time wherein it seems right to the Holy Spirit to have placed it.
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OlympicGold
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Hello,
I gave up drinking today after hearing our preacher talk about it. I'm not a heavy drinker to begin with but to cut it out of my life completely will be a chore.
Anyways, I have a Catholic friend who is saying the whole idea that Baptists have for not drinking is ludicrious. He references one scene from John 2:10 during the wedding day at Cena where Jesus was there and everybody was getting drunk. My friend then makes the argument that drinking and Christians had been around for 2 thousand years and it wasn't until the last couple of hundreds years where Baptists came on the scene and said Christians should not drink.
So for someone like me who is giving up drinking for God according to some verses in Proverbs and other books, how do I argue that verse in John where everybody is drinking and apparently during that time everybody got drunk?
Posts: 15 | From: Plano, Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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