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Topic: Is The Gentile Church The Bride Of Christ
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epouraniois
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It means that when Paul had his own desires, we are being told that the Lord had places of more import for him to goto at that time, and that by the time Acts is settled, Israel taking her place amidst the nations, the church of the one body being laid bare with the mystery revelation given to Paul for 'you', that 2 Timothy is a prison epistle, but remember, all those churches mentioned in Acts, are in Asia and on the way to Paul's final and 3rd apostolic and great circuit, Rome!
Of course they had to have been preached to, else how are they to turn away from him?
Authorized Version 1769
2Tim 1:15
. This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
2Tim 1:16
The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:
2Tim 1:17
But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found [me].
2Tim 1:18
The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.
2Tim 2:1
. Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2Tim 2:2
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
2Tim 2:3
Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2Tim 2:4
No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of [this] life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
2Tim 2:5
And if a man also strive for masteries, [yet] is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
2Tim 2:6
The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.
2Tim 2:7
Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
2Tim 2:8
. Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
2Tim 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Tim 2:16
But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Tim 2:17
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Tim 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Tim 2:19
. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Tim 2:20
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Tim 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work.
2Tim 2:22
. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
2Tim 2:23
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
2Tim 2:24
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,
2Tim 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Tim 2:26
And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
2Tim 3:1
. This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
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BORN AGAIN
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quote:
epouraniois said:
"So what do you think the HS is trying to tell us when we read that ALL in Asia had turned away?"
2Tim 1:15
This you know, that all they who are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
Assuming that you are referring to the above verse, Paul preached in the synagogues of the Diaspora of Asia and while some of those in the synagogues of Asia believed, many of the Jews living in Asia evidentally did not believe.
What do YOU think it means?
Acts 16:6
Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
Acts 19:10
And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
Acts 19:22
So he sent into Macedonia two of them that ministered unto him, Timotheus and Erastus; but he himself stayed in Asia for a season.
Acts 19:26
Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul has persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands.
Acts 20:4
And there accompanied him into Asia Sopater of Berea; and of the Thessalonians, Aristarchus and Secundus; and Gaius of Derbe, and Timotheus; and of Asia, Tychicus and Trophimus.
1 Corinthians 16:19
The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.
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epouraniois
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So what do you think the HS is trying to tell us when we read that ALL in Asia had turned away?
Of course, now, the believers during the Acts time period were overcomers, should be in the heavenly city called New Jerusalem, but they turned away from the teachings of the revelation of the mystery, wherein they could have become members of the body of Christ, but perhaps their fate was sealed with Israel, the tree they were graphed into, which was cut down.
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by epouraniois
How many times did the Lord tell them that every tree that did not bring forth fruit would be cut down?
He was only referring to those trees (individuals) within Israel/Judah who were not bearing fruit. But those in Israel/Judah who bore fruit (of whom there were thousands, with Peter alone 3,000 believed) wo were NOT cut off in Israel/Judah becasuse they bore the fruit of believing.
John 7:31
And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ comes, will he do more miracles than these which this man has done?
Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about 3,000 persons.
Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
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epouraniois
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Answer me this, does it say but for a remnant they would have been as Soddom and Gemorrah, or does it say but for a believing remnant...
See what happens when we add words to God's word? We come away with invalid arguments which have to then be unlearned.
We are not asked to have our own understanding, we are asked to believe God's understanding, and stick to the exactness of it is written.
Prov 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Prov 3:6
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Prov 3:7
. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
Prov 3:8
It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
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epouraniois
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The distinction is made for me, all I have to do is acknowledge it.
How many times did the Lord tell them that every tree that did not bring forth fruit would be cut down?
Should we not believe it?
As the Holy Spirit told us by His chosen vessel Paul, at the onset of the prison ministry, ALL in Asia had turned away. How many? ALL, only Luke 'is with me'.
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BORN AGAIN
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don't you have to distinguish between the thousands of Israel/Judah who did believe and who were therefore NOT cut out of the good olive tree?
how can you lump the believing portion of Israel/Judah together with the unbelieving portion of Israel?
only the unbelieving portion of Israel/Judah was cut off the good olive tree, not the believing portion.
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epouraniois
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2Tim 1:15
. This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
The tree is a symbol for Israel. It is an idiom, that is an acceptable phrase having a meaning different than the words, a Figure of speech, which conveys (always) more than the words themselves do declair:
Lets look at some verses in prophecy, then in fulfillment:
Mat 12 TO THE JEWS
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying,
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall show judgment to the Gentiles.
He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand...An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign...and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
IT IS HERE IN CH12 THAT THEY REJECTED HIM, AND AFTERWARDS HE SPOKE TO THE MULTITUDE IN PARABLES ONLY BECAUSE OF IT
Isa 9:10 TO THE JEWS
The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycamores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars.
Isa 9:14
Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day.
Isa 10:32
As yet shall he remain at Nob that day: he shall shake his hand against the mount of the daughter of Zion, the hill of Jerusalem.
Isa 10:33
Behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled.
THERE IS NOTHING MORE TERRIFYING FOR ISRAEL, THAN TO HAVE THE LORD REMOVE HIS PRESENCE AND INSTRUCTION FROM THEM, TO HEAR THE DREADFULL WORDS OF ISAIAH -- ACTS 28:25-29 IS THAT FULFILLMENT:
Isa 33:9-11 TO THE JEWS
The earth mourneth and languisheth: Lebanon is ashamed and hewn down: Sharon is like a wilderness; and Bashan and Carmel shake off their fruits.
Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
Hos 3:4-5 TO THE JEWS
For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
Mat 3:10 TO THE JEWS
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:19 TO THE JEWS
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Joh 15:2 TO THE JEWS
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit 4-6
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Rom 1:13 TO THE JEWS
Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
THIS IS WHAT WE CAME HERE FOR, PAUL - TO THE JEWS:
Rom 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Jam 3:12 TO THE JEWS
Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
Mat 7:17 TO THE JEWS
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Rom 11:14-15 TO THE GENTILES
If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Isa 27:11 TO THE JEWS
When the boughs thereof are withered, they shall be broken off: the women come, and set them on fire: for it is a people of no understanding: therefore he that made them will not have mercy on them, and he that formed them will show them no favor.
Rom 11:21-22 TO THE GENTILES
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:11 TO THE JEWS
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Eze 33:11 TO THE JEWS
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
TO HEAR THE DREADFULL WORDS OF ISAIAH
Isa 6:910 TO THE JEWS
And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Act 28:26-29 TO THE JEWS
Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear (HIM).
And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
Jud 1:12 TO THE JEWS
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
ISRAEL, AND THOSE FEW GENTILES, FOR A MERE 18 YEARS USED BY THE LORD TO PROVOKE ISRAEL TO EMULATION, THAT SHE MIGHT REPENT AND TURN TO THE LORD, BEARING HER FRUIT AND RECEIVE THE KING AND THE COMING KINGDOM, WERE CUT TO THE GROUND, AS JOHN THE BAPTISTS DECLARED IN THE SPIRIT OF ELIJAH
Mat 3:10 TO THE JEWS
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Rom 9:29 TO THE JEWS
And as Isaiah said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and been made like unto Gomorrah.
Rom 10:16-21 TO THE JEWS
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Rom 11:25-27 TO THE JEWS
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
2Tim 1:15
. This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
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epouraniois writes quote:
I believe we've covered that graphed in peoples on other threads, but to recap, yes, there were for 18 years some non Jews graphed in, made partakers of Israel's spiritual things, and when Israel, as a tree, was cut down, hewn down, anything graphed into the tree would naturally be cut down with her. {bold by BA}
say what?
the good olive tree never died. Paul said there was always a remnant of Israel/Judah who believed in the Messiah and who carried on as the good olive tree of Israel, while the rest of Israel/Judah was cut off for the time being, and mixed among the nations.
the good olive tree of Israel was now bornagain after Pentecost and never died.
the rest of Israel was cut off for now, but not the good olive tree which consisted now of Israelite/Judahite believers with Gentile bornagain believers grafted in.
the Gentile believers were not cut off with the house of Israel/Judah, but filled in the spaces left vacant by the ones of Israel/Judah who are cut off for now.
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epouraniois
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I believe we've covered that graphed in peoples on other threads, but to recap, yes, there were for 18 years some non Jews graphed in, made partakers of Israel's spiritual things, and when Israel, as a tree, was cut down, hewn down, anything graphed into the tree would naturally be cut down with her.
The English word Gentile comes from the Latin, and means one belonging to the same class or clan (gens). Gens in Latin indicates the race and surname, and in Roman law a Gentile indicated a member of the same gens. The Scriptural standpoint, however, is that of the Hebrew, and the word Gentile in the Bible refers to the non-Jewish nations of the earth. The Greek word translated Gentile is ethnos, and this has given rise to a number of words in English such as ethnology, the science which treats of the various races of mankind. Ethnos is probably derived from ethos, "custom, manners, etc., and means a people bound together by similar habits, manners and customs". Those of our readers who may use Dr. Bullinger's Greek Lexicon, should be apprised of a slip in the explanatory note under the word Genti1e. It reads: "In the O.T. those who were not of Israel (this of course is true) and in the N.T. those who are neither of Israel nor of the Church, see 1 Cor. 10:32."
It is the reference to 1 Cor. 10:32 that needs care, for a superficial reading uses this verse to indicate the threefold division, "Jew, Gentile and Church of God". The fact is, however, that the word translated "Gentile" in this verse is hellen, which is the more limited term "Greeks" as opposed to the "Barbarians". Both, however, were "Gentiles" in the eye of the Jew, but while all Hellens were Gentiles, all Gentiles were not and could not be Hellens. The word "Gentile" meets us in the O.T. first in Genesis ten, where the progeny of Japheth, the son of Noah, is given.
C. Welch
"By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations" (Gen. 10:5).
The R.V. corrects this by reading, "Of these were the isles of the nations divided", for until we have a Jew, we cannot have a Gentile, the one being used to distinguish the rest of the population of the earth from the Hebrew nation, and the Hebrew nation did not exist until after the call of Abraham in Genesis twelve. The Hebrew word thus translated is goi, a word derived from a root, meaning to form into a mass or a body.
In affect, non Jews were called gentiles, non Greeks were called heathens/Barbarians.
There are one or two outstanding passages where the use of the word "Gentile" is of dispensational significance. In Matthew ten, the twelve apostles were given their first commission, a commission that was concerned with preaching the kingdom of heaven, a preaching which was confirmed by extra-ordinary miracles. This commission was severely limited:
"Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye NOT, But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 10:5,6).
It is patent, therefore, that the term "Gentile" was opposed to "Israel" in this command to the twelve.
It is moreover made evident from Matthew sixteen, both from our Lord's own statement and "from that time forth began" (21), and from Peter's reaction (22), that those who had thus preached the gospel of the kingdom with signs following, had done so without knowing that Christ must suffer and die!
"A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of Thy people Israel" (Luke 2:32).
The significance of this passage will be appreciated when it is remembered that Simeon was "waiting for the consolation of Israel" (Luke 2:25), yet under the power of the Holy Ghost, he put the Gentile first.
"Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (Luke 21:24).
Further, Paul claimed that the dispensation of the grace of God had been entrusted to him "for you" Gentiles, and that he had been commissioned to preach among the Gentiles, the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make known the riches of the glory of this Mystery among the Gentiles (Eph. 3:1,2,8, Col. 1:27).
Where the A.V. reads "Gentiles" in Genesis 10:5, the R.V. reads "nations". There is no question that "nations" is a good rendering, as verses 20,31 and 32 reveal. Why, it may be asked, did the A.V. choose to translate the first occurrence of the Hebrew Goyim by the word "Gentiles"? May it not be that instead of accusing them of ignorance, we should credit them with intelligent insight? True there can be no "Gentiles" where there are no "Jews", yet knowing what was written in Deuteronomy 32:8 they may have intended to indicate that all these "nations" would be "Gentiles" as soon as Israel came into view.
"When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance (a ref. to Gen. 10:5,32), when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel."
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Romans 11:17
And if some of the branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree.
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epouraniois
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Yes? Converted gentiles, gentiles who were converted, same thing. They didn't morph, they remained gentiles, only they were shown the true God, as all gentiles were pagans, they couldn't have been anything else, because only God only revealed Himself to the Hebrews.
Sure, there were some gentiles who became Jews, but that is what Acts is all about, gentiles being made known about God, which generated the huge problem for the Jews, because now that the Jews were given the opportunity to receive her kingdom in all its glorious fulness, they had to accept that the gentiles no longer were required to become Jews, see Acts15.
I am a beleiver, my bloodtype didn't change, neither did my nationality, still just a person who is not a Jew, a gentile.
Assuming you are a believer, does that make you a Jew?
Being a freeman was a Roman term, you had to be born as Paul was.
I don't know of any place where it says believers are freemen. I suppose that if you aren't in prison or jail, you are a free man
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
Never referred to gentiles as believers? Are you sure? You sound sure.
Let's examine the proper context in which the scriptures you quoted were made. We can see that the Gentiles Paul referred to were from a specific type of society. The Gentile's 'religion' often embraced paganism.
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God
~ CONVERTED Gentiles who turned to God and became Christians.
Act 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
~Paul went there to CONVERT the Gentiles to The Truth
Rom 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
~Look at Verse 37 Since the Gentiles received the wonderful spiritual blessings of the Good News from the Jewish Christians, they feel the least they can do in return is help them financially. Once again speaking about the Gentiles' conversion.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
~The Gentiles are among a list, including the Jews. That doesn't mean we are called Gentiles. I would like to be considered one of the free.
Col. 1:27 To whom God would make know what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope Glory.
Paul is speaking to the Colossians., who were Gentiles.
Verses 24,25 I am glad when I suffer for you in my body, for I am completing what remains for Christ's suffering for his his body THE CHURCH . God has given me the responsiblity of serving his church by proclaiming his message in all of its fullnes [b]to you Gentiles.
The Gentiles left their pagan ways to join THE CHURCH
Epr you say such things as "Perhaps it would help to understand this by acknowledging that the word gentile simply means nations."
Then you turn around and say -
In fact, at Acts28.28, the Jews took their place amidst the nations and became gentiles themselves in so being.
Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that the Jews became Gentiles. They are referred to as Jewish Christians.
Acts 11:26
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Romans 15:27
They were very glad to do this because they feel they owe a real debt to them. Since the Gentiles received the wonderful spiritual blessings of the Good News from the Jewish Christians, they feel the least they can do in return is help them financially.
Acts 21:25
"As for the Gentile Christians, all we ask of them is what we already told them in a letter: They should not eat food offered to idols, nor consume blood, nor eat meat from strangled animals, and they should stay away from all sexual immorality."
I believe this confirms that the word Gentile is referring to a converted society, such as the Jewish were a converted society, both becoming Christians.
1 Corinthians 12:2
You know that when you were still pagans you were led astray and swept along in worshiping speechless idols.
The unconverted Gentiles were pagans.
So once again showing that the former Gentile Church/Religion is not the Bride of Christ, in the same way as the Jewish Church/Religion is not the Bride of Christ.
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epouraniois
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Never referred to gentiles as believers? Are you sure? You sound sure.
Act 15:19
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God
Act 15:23
And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
Rom 15:27
It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
1Co 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory
This syrophenician woman believed, and the Lord called her a dog, which is a word used of gentiles:
Mat 15:26
But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
There are many MANY more, but this should suffice to show that non Jew believers are called and are gentiles.
Perhaps it would help to understand this by acknowledging that the word gentile simply means nations. Nations or ethnos as it were, they all three are the same word, and during the Acts, it was ALWAYS, to the Jew first, then to the gentile, to the Jew first, then to the nations.
In fact, at Acts28.28, the Jews took their place amidst the nations and became gentiles themselves in so being.
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The whole of the problem for the Israelites was the fact that the gentiles were being blessed without having to take on the full burden of the law and become Jews. They could not accept that gentiles could be blessed without becoming a Jew. Acts 15 is all about the assembly (the word church) at the synagogue to put on trial the very subject in which it was announced:
Act 15:23
And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
Act 15:24
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Act 15:25
It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26
Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27
We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Act 15:28
For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29
That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.
On another note:
In the new creation, when all the redeemed of all ages are raised, the Church which is the perfect Man, or husband, and the Church which is the BRIDE may re-enact in its full spiritual sense, the union of the first man and woman (Gen. 2:21-24), but that lies beyond the present limits of the ages and dispensations as they have been revealed by Scripture. The Church which is His Body is one company, with a calling that is unique and distinct. The Church of the Bride is another company with a calling unique and distinct, and until God joins these two together let no man attempt to do so.
CHURCH (Gr. EKKLESIA).
1. The Greek word ekklesia means assembly, or a gathering of called-out ones. It is used seventy times in the Septuagint for the Hebrew kahal (from which latter we have our word call), rendered in Sept. by sunagoge and ekklesia. (*1) This latter word occ. in N.T. 115 times (36 in plural), and is always transl. "church" except in Acts 19:32, 39, 41 (assembly).
2. kahal is used (1) of Israel as a People called out from the rest of the nations (Gen. 28:3); (2) of the tribal council of Simeon and Levi, those called out from each tribe (Gen. 49:6); (3) of an assembly of Israelites called out for worship or any other purpose (Deut. 18:16; 31:30. Josh. 8:35. Judg. 21:8); (4) any assembly of worshippers as a congregation (Ps. 22:22, 25. Ekklesia in Matt. 16:18; 18:17. 1Cor. 14:19, 35, &c.); (5) the equivalent ekklesia of separate assemblies in different localities (Acts 5:11; 8:3. 1Cor. 4:17, &c.); (6) of the guild or "union" of Ephesian craftsmen (Acts 19:32, 41), and v. 39 (the lawful assembly). Finally, the special Pauline usage of ekklesia differs from all these. Other assemblies consisted of called-out ones from Jews, or from Gentiles (Acts 18:22), but this new body is of called-out ones from both.
3. Our word "church" (*2) has an equally varied usage. It is used (1) of any congregation; (2) of a particular church (England, or Rome, &c); (3) of the ministry of a church; (4) of the building in which the congregation assembles; (5) of Church as distinct from Chapel; (6) of the church as distinct from the world, and lastly, it is used in the Pauline sense, of the body of Christ.
4. It is of profound importance to distinguish the usage of the word in each case, else we may be reading "the church which was in the wilderness" into the Prison Epistles, although we are expressly told that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the "church which is His body". And when our Lord said "On this rock I will build my church" (Matt. 16:18), those who heard His words could not connect them with the "mystery" which was "hid in God" and had not then been made known to the sons of men. Confusion follows our reading what refers to Israel in the past or the future into the present dispensation. Readers are referred to the various notes in the connexions.
5. The word where qualified by other terms occurs thus: --
Church of God; Acts 20:28. 1Cor. 1:2; 10:32; 11:16 (pl.), 22; 15:9. 2Cor. 1:1. Gal. 1:13. 1Thess. 2:14 (pl.). 2Thess. 1:4 (pl). 1Tim. 3:5, 15 (c. of the living God).
Churches of Christ; Rom. 16:16.
Church in .. house; Rom. 16:5. 1Cor. 16:19. Col. 4:15. Philem. 2.
Churches of the Gentiles; Rom. 16:4.
Churches of Galatia; 1Cor. 16:1. Gal. 1:2. Of Asia; 1Cor. 16:19. Of Macedonia; 2Cor. 8:1. Of Judaea; Gal. 1:22. Of the Laodiceans; Col. 4:16. Of the Thessalonians; 1Thess. 1:1; 2Thess .1:1.
Church of the firstborn (pl); Heb. 12:23.
Church in Ephesus, Smyrna, &c. Rev. 2 and 3; and
Churches; Rev. 22:16.
(*1) kahal occurs in the Old Testament 123 times; congregation eighty-six, assembly seventeen, company seventeen, and multitude three times. The Sept. uses sunagoge and ekklesia as practically synonymous terms. But the sunagoge concerns the bringing together of the members of an existing society or body excluding all others, whereas the ekklesia calls and invites all men, including outsiders everywhere, to join it. Sunagoge being permanently associated with Jewish worship, was dropped by the early Christians in favor of ekklesia as of wider import.
(*2) Is derived from the Gr. kuriakos, of or belonging to the Lord, house (Gr. oikos) being understood. It comes to us through A.S. circe (Scottish kirk).
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
But I would agree that the church of the New Covenant is mostly a Gentile church.
I personally don't like this reference, because once converted they were not called Gentiles in the scriptures. Jesus never referred to believers as Gentiles, nor did Paul.
Remember -
Matthew 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again
Believers were called 'the church' only
Acts 2:41
Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church--about three thousand in all.
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epouraniois
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I am so pleased for the Lord that you see the difference now between Jew and gentile
umm...if this is directed at me, I have always known about the Jew and the Gentiles being two different people groups.
Yes, it is directed at you because of the following:
quote:
Dear epouraniois, thank you for that great info on that we are the Gentile church—good collection of verses to prove it.
But to say that we are part of the Gentile church, I would say that we are part of a composite church, are we not, since there are northern Israelites and southern Judahites also in the church.
But I would agree that the church of the New Covenant is mostly a Gentile church.
How can a gentile church who never had a first or old covenant possibly be the people to have a new covenant?
I got some reading to do in this thread before I can continue.
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Is the Gentile Church the Bride of Christ? The short answer - No.
The Gentiles were often spoken as the enemy in the Bible.
Matthew 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.
My definition of Gentile would be a non-Jew who had to be converted. That was what part of Paul's ministry was about; to go to countries like Greece and Rome to delivery the Good News to the Gentiles in those nations. Once they became believers they would become part of 'the church.'
Somewhere in your quite involved posts epr I believe you made the reference to the bride, the Lamb's wife. It has to be noted that it comes from a scripture in Revelation.
Revelation 21:9
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
~ This is referring to the Bride who came from heaven with Jesus during the Second Coming.
Rev. 19:5-10And from the throne came a voice that said, "Praise our God, all his servants, from the least to the greatest, all who fear him."
Then I heard again what sounded like the shout of a huge crowd, or the roar of mighty ocean waves, or the crash of loud thunder: "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns. Let us be glad and rejoice and honor him.
For the time has come for the wedding feast of the Lamb, and his bride has prepared herself. She is permitted to wear the finest white linen." (Fine linen represents the good deeds done by the people of God.)
And the angel said, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding feast of the Lamb." And he added, "These are true words that come from God."
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yahsway
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Great Post BA, thats how I percieve it anyway.
timespong, the greek word ekklessia means "the called out ones", the word "church" is Old Germanic and comes from the word circe. Look it up.
We are called out from among them, out from our pagan ways to join the God of Israel thru His Son Yeshua/Jesus.
And its really not about "going" to Church but about "Being" the church if you will.
God has called us OUT from darkness into His marvelous Light/Jesus.
The gospel was to the Jew first, since the first Christians were most likely all Jewish believers until sometime around 51bc when Peter had the vision of unclean food and realized that God was to send him also to the Gentiles to preach the gospel.
Our God is no respector of persons. His church consist of people from every tribe, tongue and nations. This includes Jewish believers as well as Ephramite/Isralite believers as well.
There is only One body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, One faith One baptisim, One God and Father of all, who is above all and through all ect..(Eph.4)
"For God has committed them all(Jews) to disobediance, that He might have Mercy on ALL.
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timspong
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The "church" didn't come into being until the Pentecostal event. The Greek word Church was translated from in Acts 7.38 is "ejkklhsiva" that probably means gathering or congregation in this context.
There is only one Church. For the first 1000 years or so it was one doctrine. Then the Pope at the time declared himself head of the church rather than first among equals. This and other heresies forced the Eastern Orthodox Church to split from the now Roman Catholic Church. Further heresies caused the reformation and formation of the Protestant (from the word protest). The Protestants rebelled completely and threw most of the ceremonial traditions out of their doctrine and became more or less totally Bible based. Now the Protestants had no clear lines of authority, as the Catholic Church did, and tended to have many divisions and splits as they developed various doctrines.
In my experience different Christian churches have a mixture of the following 3 elements:
1. Traditional ceremonial – e.g. eastern orthodox, Roman Catholic etc
2. Evangelical Bible Based. Baptists etc
3. Charismatic – Spirit filled non-denomination.
I think all 3 elements are important and the reason that there is so much “church hopping” is that Christians are looking for fulfillment in all 3 areas. I have only come across one church that balances all 3 and it is in the USA. My particular church is very much 2 and 3 about 50/50 although I was brought up as “Church of England” so I have an appreciation for a more ceremonial approach. It really does bring a level of magnificence and awe to the worship service.
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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
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BORN AGAIN
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epourainois writes quote:
I am so pleased for the Lord that you see the difference now between Jew and gentile
umm...if this is directed at me, I have always known about the Jew and the Gentiles being two different people groups.
But to say that we are part of the Gentile church, I would say that we are part of a composite church, are we not, since there are northern Israelites and southern Judahites also in the church.
But I would agree that the church of the New Covenant is mostly a Gentile church.
But are you saying that we are "only" a Gentile church, or are you not saying that?
epouraniois, in one of your posts above you also say that "by the 1st century A.D. all were called Jews".
I'm not so sure about that. The northern kingdom of Israel was mixed with the nations probably since the 500s B.C. and the Judahites or Jews were mixed among the nations at 70 A.D.
Additionally, during Macedonian Greek rule, the relative stability and prosperity enabled a number of Judahites to move to other countries, to the Diaspora, as merchants and tentmakers, as for instance Saul (Paul) of Tarsus was in southeast Turkey.
The Jews who had assembled at Jerualem from Parthia and Cyrene and Crete and all the other places, probably all were Jews, because northern Israelites never called themselves Jews. They only used the name Israel on themselves.
However, for the southern kingdom of Judah (consisting of Judah-Benjamin-Levi), the name Judah (or Jews) was used and also the name Israel. Judah is also called Israel in the New Covenant, but Israel is never called Judah or Jews in the Bible, as far as I can tell thus far.
Moreover, northern Israel early on abandoned the LORD and traded Him in for the two golden calves and for Baal and for Moloch and others. At the division of Israel into two kingdoms, the people in northern Israel who wanted to continue to worhip the LORD came over to Judah-Benjamin-Levi and augmented them.
Augmented them, yes, but the vast majority of northern Israel stayed together as northern Israel and abandoned the LORD.
But Judah-Benjamin-Levi continued with the LORD and in the 1st century, it were Jews living in the Diaspora, who could come and go like Saul (Paul) of Tarsus could, who were living in these places. These were Jews from Judah-Benjamin-Levi, and not Israelites from the northern kingdom[/b]:
Acts 2
5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
During the period of relative stability of the Macedonian Greeks from 321 B.C. to 31 B.C., Jews from Judah-Benjamin-Levi had moved to all these countries, as freemen, and that was still the case during the Roman era from 31 B.C. and throughout the 1st century A.D. Jews and synagogues were in all those Near Eastern countries.
But mostly northern Israelites couldn’t care less about the LORD to come to Jerusalem.
Moreover, while the Israelites are mixed among the nations, does not the Bible foretell that they would “not remember who they were while among the Gentiles”? That is never said of the Jews of Judah/Ben/Levi.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois wrote quote:
Throughout Scripture Israel is the bride, as He is married to her. Israel is called a she, a woman. The church which is His body is never so labeled other than a man, a perfect man, and []is a husband throughout[/b]. {bold by BORN AGAIN}
does that mean that the church (the husband) will marry Israel (the bride) at His Second Coming? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
BORN AGAIN
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Mat 4:13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zebulun and Naphtali:
Mat 4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying,
Mat 4:15 The land of Zebulun, and the land of Naphtali, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
Mat 4:16
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
Mat 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 4:18
And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
Mat 4:19
And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
This goes to show that the Jews were dispersed partly because of the Roman occupation, wherein Paul would later scatter them harder. I do recall searching and it seems that each of the disciples were of Judah, but that is a memory which could be fallible. If I recall correctly, it was pretty hard to trace that down, which goes to the point that they all considered themselves Jews at that point, under the gentile yoke for many centuries may have quenched that old anamosity, perhaps?
Therefore (from the Galileen verse above) in Acts then, it is the literal Jews, kinsmen in the flesh (slang term for all Israel) from every nation under heaven who all heard the 12 speak in their very own dialect at the same time = miracles which had always followed Israel. God will soon take up His work with her again, and there will be angels and miracles for her, although we may not see them. Israel will always be Gods chosen and preimenent people of the earth to bring all the nations to the Lord in resurrection.
Additionally, when the HS is working with Israel (99.999999% of the Book), we are to understand this as not needing to be told all the world except for China, blah blah blah...
We are supposed to know He means all the world wherein are they who are Israel because Israel is all the world in the Bible. Likewise, we are expected to be able to follow the subject and object grammatically throughout the Scriptures, so when we read 'whosoever will', well, whosoever will who are of Israel. See it? Until God changes the subject from Israel, the world and the whosoever will pertain unto the subject, being Israel, who only was made known God, and for quite some time there was no hope for anyone until Israel received or divorced herself from the kingdom of heaven. The first time anyone has a hope other than Israel is during the Acts, and even then, they didn't have their own hope, they were blessed through, not with, but through Israel and even still, only for the purpose of provoking Israel to make her decision.
We do not read of any gentile, that is to say nation/ethnos (everyone is of some ethnos or another = same word) having a hope and calling apart from Israel, until Israel takes her place amidst the nations herself.
This is why I do not understand how people basically ignore the only letters in all of Scriptue with our name on them. Satan at work in the desolate houses of men I guess - Amo 8:11. Now the Hebrews can become overcomers as did Paul, but the mystery of Iraels blindness must be remembers, as Paul instructed us that all in Asia (wherein lies Paul's ministry) had turned away when he began teaching about going to heaven and SITTING with Christ for His completion. (They freaked out when He read 1.5 verses and sat down, there is a rule for that, and He followed it, but usually it is 21 verses or when the point of the sermon is reached if memory is functioning)and in Hebrews there is large point being made about Him preforming ONE sacrifice for ALL and then sat down, as the priest of Israel never sat down, they were sacrificing all thier waking hours basically, bathed in the blood of the picture words being worked out. That is how the words are born out in the Greek - sons being children to the Hebrews, and sons to the church of the one body. This has to do with His body becoming an habitation of the Lord, for we are His workmanship, ""Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ"". -- Col 2:17
Quick word here, the kingdom of heaven is only in Mathew, wherein Christ is presented as the king, and this kingdom of heaven is strickly Hebrew in it's heavenly charactor while it's position is earthly. The kingdom of God encompasses both the heaven and the heaven of heavens and all things therein. This is the main difference in the two terms. Then too, while in the flesh, it is noteworthy that only the church of the one body are called sons. Israel is always called children. The same English word 'sons' being employeed, but the Greek gives us the distincion.
The differences between the gentile church of the mystery and that of Israel's church is almost unending, at least in my studies I have never come to a stopping point where I stop finding differences. But there are an extremely few and hard to find similarities between those called into the the church in the prison epistles and those of Acts and prior.
I am so pleased for the Lord that you see the difference now between Jew and gentile, as this should open up a whole new world for you. As for me, I never read a verse without learning incredible new things. And you can trust me, I have done some reading of the verses too, and have never fully plumbed even one verse.
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Dear epouraniois, thank you for that great info on that we are the Gentile church—good collection of verses to prove it. (thumbs-up icon goes here).
I like that a lot. You also wrote quote:
The disciples of Christ were Jews.
didn’t Yashua-Jesus collect most of His disciples from Galilee? And were they not called Galileans by the Jews assembled for Pentecost at Jerusalem?
Acts 2:7
And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, “Look, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
On what then do you base the statement: quote:
The disciples of Christ were Jews
Please clarify. BORN AGAIN by the
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epouraniois
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There is only one Israel, only one covenant people, they are the people of promise. God had only been working with His people in covenant relation, being Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob *Israel*.
quote:
The disciples were not preaching to Judah-Benjamin-Levi who had already accepted or rejected
That is not correct,
Act 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about a hundred and twenty,)
There were only about 120 believers after Christ had risen, and too, Paul was a Benjamite, and called himself a Jew, in fact, Romans 10 declares all Israel had heard, and yet, we only hear of going to synagogues and preaching to the Jews. This is because by the time Christ was born, all tribes were called Jews. While it is true, 1,000 years before this they made tribal distinctions, they are absent from the NT in that form until we get to Rev.
Act 2:5
And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
These were the dispersion from every nation under heaven where there are Jews:
Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Act 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Even in the very last chapter it is laid out for our learning:
Act 28:17
And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
Act 28:19
But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had aught to accuse my nation of.
Act 28:20
For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
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epouraniois
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The church which is His body, IS a gentile church:
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
And in the first *and every* epistle written thereafter:
Eph 2:11
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us
Eph 3:1
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles
The disciples of Chrsit were Jews, He told them, go not into the way of the gentiles, and stated, I came not but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
The gentiles God used to provoke Israel by are the children of Isaac, also, like the woman at the well, the offspring of Abraham, but not of Jacob, that is to say, not of Israel and therefore not having the promises save for inheriting the land, being made seperate of the kingdom to come of that priestly nation Israel.
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Remember that some, a great nation out of Abraham is the promise to his other son Ishmael. That is what is being distinguished here. They were of Isaac, but not Jews.
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epour> writes quote:
The Gentiles had no hope of their own during the Acts ministry to Israel. If Israel was cut off, they were cut off along with her.
The Acts ministry to Israel? Which Israel do you mean?
After Jesus's ascension, the disciples of Jesus were mostly persecuted and driven out of Judah, but as they went, they preached the gospel of the resurrection of Jesus.
The disciples were not preaching to Judah-Benjamin-Levi who had already accepted or rejected Jesus as the Messiah or not, and now the disciples of Jesus, after Pentecost especially, Acts went "to the synagoues" in the Diaspora, presumably attended by Diaspora Judah-Jews as well as some Ephraim-Israelites, in the Diaspora.
Is that the Israel you meant, epour>, when you wrote: quote:
The Gentiles had no hope of their own during the Acts ministry to Israel. If Israel was cut off, they were cut off along with her.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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You bet, thanks for helping me direct this thread.
First the church in the wilderness:
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us.
Fundamentally, if it is in the OT, it is about Israel;
Now,when Jeremiah prophesied of the institution of the New Covenant, he said, "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt: which My covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them". This supposes that under the terms of the old covenant, Israel were related to the Lord as a wife to an husband. This is recognized by Ezekiel, who wrote, namely in Ezekiel 16:7-14. The figure employed, "I spread my skirt over thee" when compared with Ruth 3:9 reveals the marriage relationship, which is explained by Ezekiel as entering into a "covenant" and "prospering as a kingdom".
The charge laid against Israel, however, is that they proved unfaithful to their marriage vow, Ezekiel likened them to "a wife that committeth adultery" (Ezek. 16:32) and says that Israel will be judged "as a woman that breaketh wedlock" (Ezek. 16:38). The phrase, which has become common in modern matrimonial lawsuits, "breach of promise", is used by God of Israel in Numbers 14:34; and divorcement is employed by Jeremiah to set forth this people's unhappy position.
"They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? .
Turn O backsliding children saith the Lord: for I am married unto you" (Jer. 3:1,14).
Isaiah speaks of divorcement saying:
"Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away?" (Isa. 50:1).
The same Isaiah has some glowing words to say regarding the ultimate restoration of this wayward people:
"Thou shaft no more be termed Forsaken: neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shaft be called Hephzibah and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married" (Isa. 62:4).
The prophet Hosea, is the prophet of the interval between the setting aside of Israel and of their restoration. In Chapter one, he has three children bearing prophetic names:
Jezreel. "Scattering" and also "Sowing".
Lo-ruhamah. "Not having obtained mercy."
Lo-ammi. "Not My people."
In Chapter two the prophet continues, "she is not My wife, neither am I her husband" but at the close, all is reversed, all is restored:
"I will betroth thee unto Me for ever".
"I will sow (Jezreel) her unto Me in the earth, and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy: and I will say unto them which were not My people, Thou art My people: and they shall say, Thou art my God" (2:23).
Abraham had the land as an assured inheritance but as an overcomer, he looked higher, and waited for the heavenly city. In both Revelation nineteen and twenty one it is the "Lamb" who is the Bridegroom. The Revelation is particularly concerned with a believing, overcoming remnant, and it is this overcoming remnant out of Israel that is depicted under the figure of a Bride. While this distinction must be observed, for the restored Israel, as the wife once divorced and at last taken back again is not the subject of the book of the Revelation. Restored Israel as such, has no place in the heavenly city, that is reserved for the heavenly calling of the kingdom.
The language of Revelation 21:10 when compared with Revelation 17:1 places these two women, these two cities, these two systems in direct opposition, a third woman *His body a male*, or city, or system, would be an intruder here.
Throughout Scripture Israel is the bride, as He is married to her. Israel is called a she, a woman. The church which is His body is never so labeled other than a man, a perfect man, and a husband throughout.
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epour>, you write quote:
Each and every one of those are written for Israel's hope, of which hope the Gentiles for 18 years only were used to provoke her thereby to bear her fruit of repentance.
Who were these Gentiles who for 18 years were used to provoke Israel's hope? Are you referring to the Galilean disciples of Jesus?
Matthew 4:15
The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.
Matthew 4:23
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
The Galilean disciples whom Yahshua-Jesus chose must have been Israelites because otherwise the disciples would not have been able to go into the synagogues with their Teacher?
Anyway, epour> Who were these Gentiles who for 18 years were used to provoke Israel's hope? Are you referring to the Galilean disciples of Jesus?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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dear epouraniois, I have not read your Topic yet but hopefully will get to that, but in a first paragraph you wrote quote:
But to say that the gentile church of the prison Epistles is that same church of the wilderness who is Israel the bride was always a cause of pause, Sooo, I began to look very deeply into this. I never go by what is the common teachings of man, although I get much study from having heard what they are talking about. {bold by BORN AGAIN}]
Why do you use the term "gentile church"? I don't think that exists, does it?
There is only one church, composed of Israelite-Judahite believers in Yahshua-Jesus the Messiah and composed of proselyte Gentile believers in Yahshua-Jesus the Messiah.
That is the only church I have ever heard or read about. Would you care to explain?
I also don't quite understand what you mean by quote:
But to say that the gentile church of the prison Epistles is that same church of the wilderness who is Israel the bride was always a cause of pause
the church of the wilderness who is Israel the bride, would you care to explain that to me?
Thank you, BORN AGAIN by the of Yahshua-Jesus
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There are many churches in Scripture, as the translators have so used the word.
But to say that the gentile church of the prison Epistles is that same church of the wilderness who is Israel the bride was always a cause of pause, Sooo, I began to look very deeply into this. I never go by what is the common teachings of man, although I get much study from having heard what they are talking about.
What you will find in this thread is that the Bible actually says very very very different things than what is COMMONLY taught and WIDELY accepted.
Firstly, a word on right division. Acts had one purpose, and if this kingdom hope for Israel is not understood, then this is too most likely too advanced to even read. The letters written during the Acts expressly for the hope of Israel are as follows:
Hebrews - To the Jew.
James - To the Jewish dispersion.
Peter I & II - To the Jewish dispersion.
Jude - To the Jew.
John I, II, & III - To the Jew.
Galatians - To the Jew first, then to the un naturally graphed in Gentiles.
Thessolonians I & II - To the Jew first, then to the un naturally graphed in Gentiles.
Corinthians I & II - To the Jew first, then to the un naturally graphed in Gentiles.
Romans - To the Jew first, then to the un naturally graphed in Gentiles.
Acts - Historical - To the Jew first, then to the un naturally graphed in Gentiles except for the last four verses.
Each and every one of those are written for Israel's hope, of which hope the Gentiles for 18 years only were used to provoke her thereby to bear her fruit of repentance. All Israel had to do was to believe. That is all they were to do, but they did not. The Gentiles had no hope of their own during the Acts ministry to Israel. If Israel was cut off, they were cut off along with her. They were made to be partakers of Israel's spiritual things, serving her somewhat in her carnal things. They had no hope of their own. Israel's hope was their hope. No words about going to heaven or anything like that. Going to heaven was not revealed until the Mystery was given, and that was after Acts and the setting aside of Israel and her kingdom, which went into, and now is in abayance.
The apostle Paul was then, for the first time in all of the Bible, told to go and preach for the hope of all nations. He then wrote seven more letters, called epistles.
These are written for the hope of you Gentiles, or nations wherein the Mystery is revealed for the first time:
Ephesians - To the nations.
Colossians - To the nations.
Philemon - To the nations.
Philippians - To the nations.
Titus - To the nations.
Timothy I & II - To the nations.
What does the Bible really say concerning "The Bride, the Lamb’s wife"?
I also have though alot about how to approach the subject. I am fortunate in the respect that I hadn't formal church anything, I feel I have less beliefs to undo and rework than many folks. This one is definately against the teachings of 'Public Worship'. In most cases, people just say in their minds that they do not believe the Bible and what it says, that they will continue to believe what they already are comfortabl with, what their teachers tell them is correct. It doesn't seem to matter even the slightest that they believe what the Bible never says, never states. Of these, Paul reminds us, and we must ask ourselves, are we praying then, to the unknown god, the god we create in our minds, a god that is not Biblical?
I hope everyone knows I will endeavor to dig as deep as I am able to show why I use the words I use, always:
There seems to be a great deal of confusion of exactly who the bride and the bridegroom are. A lot of people say the bride is the church, but the bride is Israel. Well, where do we fit in? Are we the guests? or what? So I think the best way to begin is to look at some of the differences between these two great subjects of scripture by noting some of them God gives us in the form of “hopes” and “promises” and “Glory” through His Dear Son.
Now, Abraham’s descendants were in covenant relationship, right up until that period of the Acts was over. Now, a lot of folks think that God was with Israel right up until the crucifixion, but that is not scripturally true. After the Christ died, resurrected, and taught His disciples for 40 days in Acts 1, He further taught about the Kingdom after having opened the eyes of their understanding, expounded upon the Kingdom, and all things pertaining to the Kingdom promises for Israel, as that promised, reunited, made whole and complete again nation.
When Christ left, He told them to stay in Jerusalem, and wait for the HS to come, as the baptizement into the HS was about to come. And they wanted to know, When was He going to restore the church; Set up the new church. No, no. Their enlightened understanding of Christ's ministry left no such mark. They asked Him about the Kingdom. They didn’t know anything about any church, but they knew all about the kingdom of God from the OT, and the kingdom of heaven that was going to come down to the earth. Yes, the kingdom was nigh at hand, and yes, they knew their promise, and their inheritance, they knew what is the hope of His calling, and that calling is a covenant Kingdom promise to be established “on the earth”. their hope is not to go to heaven. There is nothing in the OT about going to heaven, or being with Chirst in the heavenly places. They knew that Kingdom was not on earth, was in heaven, and is going to come down to the earth, and they would then rule and live in that great city “on the earth”.
Act 1:3 To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
The LORD’s love and longsuffering held out all through the Acts, they were told to repent as a nation but they didn’t do it. Peter used the Keys that Christ had given him to open up the door to the gentiles, and the gentiles were very accepting, but Israel still did not repent and turn to the LORD. Finally, in Acts 28 the Holy Spirit told Paul to tell them they were dull in hearing, and had an un understanding mind, [heart], and that they could be healed, but they turned and walked away.
So Paul was “sent” to the nations, and they would hear. Paul stopped talking about Moses and the prophets after that. There is nothing to quote from for this new church calling in which this heavenly hope rests. In Acts it was always to the Jew first, and then the gentile, and He always taught from Moses and the prophets. At Acts end, Israel blinded, the Salvation of God sent to the nations. Soon the great city was destroyed, burned, Israel again was driven out of the land, 'scattered'. They had become officially “Lo-Ammi”, as foretold in Hosea, which means “you are not my people”, additionally the Lord added, “and I will not be your God”. This is still evident today, as the priests have no duty to perform in their gatherings; one among many other aspects of their continued blindness and unusableness. God is not at the time present working directly with Israel or any nation, but all nations equally, as individuals.
Romans chapter 11 tell us that partial blindness had come upon them, but also assures us that this blindness of Israel was temporary, “until the fullness of the Gentiles would come in” but, “all Israel shall be saved”, for it is a covenant between Israel and God. He tells them that the gifts they received and the calling of God towards them are “without repentance”. It didn’t bother God one bit to graphed in un naturally those wild nations to stretch forth His arms to Israel. God warns not to be ignorant of this secret that is being revealed; that ignorance leads to blindness:
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
We should also have in our mind that God has made unconditional promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob concerning their future. So what we need to know is whether or not we belong to that church era, or the some other one, because there are many remarkable differences that we want to know all about. We need to know what is the hope of His calling!!! Diffs: For one thing, there were no more healings, no more miracles, no raising the dead, no more talking by the Holy Spirit, no signs following with the Lord working with them. No, not one mention of anything like that. Remember, Paul got bit by that viper, and they all looked at him to see if he was going to drop (must have been super-poisonous). They knew what kind of snake that was, but that was part of that pouring out of the Holy Spirit, the apostle shakes it off, and they believe he is a god. Then the apostle heals all of them who were in need.
After Israel takes her place amidst the nations, the circular letter of Ephesians was sent forth for the hope of you gentiles:
Now
When Paul came to them by these prison epistles, telling them God gave him a message that none of them had, and he didn’t have a witness. That God had hid this message from men and from generations, but now it is made known... Well, what would you think if someone came up to you and told you that? Well, the Holy Spirit had at the apostles first calling, to perform a miracle right on the spot, showing the Holy Spirit using Paul was real. (Evidentual miracles are always a sign of God's working with Israel). Well, there was no more of that, not up to this very day.
The letters we need to realize are different, are the ones written before and after Acts. The 7 epistles Paul wrote afterwards are Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, Philemon, Titus, and 1 & 2 Timothy. Our main focus should be in Eph, Col, Philip, and 2 Tim.
People don’t like that word dispensation, so I used the word “era” a moment ago. To dispense. That is a more accurate term, as it really just means to administer a household (many mansions (resting places)), and comes from the word steward. A steward is one who is responsible for administration (stewarship). So its really not a terrible word, or a strange word, and we shouldn’t allow it to bother us at all. And what Paul will administer to us, or really it is the Holy Spirit, is the Mystery, and that word just means a secret. If we lived 500 years ago, we would never use the word secret, we would say mystery instead.
Paul is going to be the one who God uses to give us His secret, and this secret we read, has been “hid in God”. It wasn’t hidden in the Bible, no. It was Hid in God. No one could ever find it before. It was a secret, a mystery, and Paul is that faithful steward of this great truth. Paul is a minister unto the gentiles. Every body seems to just stop right there. But that isn’t the secret. And the secret that all the nations would be blessed because of Israel was not secret either. people pick out a few things when they need them, but they miss out on all the joy that way and never understand the mystery. We can only understand if we read about it.
Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Paul did not say we are going to be fellow heirs with the Jews, or with Israel, and we shouldn’t add it in. He says, “of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ”. Not in Israel, but “in Christ”. Israel is a called out nation, and this is an elect church which is His Body, made of all the nations, irregardless of being a Jew or not, “fitly joined together” to form one new man, with Christ as the head. This is all new revelation, Biblically. Officially, it is called the dispensation of grace Eph3.1-3.
What Paul is going to teach is the “unsearchable riches of Christ”. Unsearchable! Paul uses the word “riches”, “exceeding riches”, and "according to His riches”. Well, we should want to know all about that. The church that existed in the period of the Acts is built upon Israel, it was administered through Israel with all the miracles of the Israelites and their God, who offered the blessings according to the hopes & promises of Israel. The Gentiles were a small group of people in some surrounding areas God was using for His longsuffering for the restoration through repentance. That promised Holy City would come down, and be built upon living stones, lively stones, a holy priesthood, just as promised. And this Heavenly City, we know in Revelation is that bride made up of these priestly kings, made up of “lively stones”. That’s what the purpose of the pouring out of the gifts of the Spirit were all about, bringing Israel into her rightful inheritance. Because they had crucified their King who is the Lord from heaven. Oh, how the LORD is longsuffering. Of Israel it is written:
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Well this sounds like what we read in Revelations, what is always spoken of when the hope of Israel is in view. Israel alone has priests, Biblically.
1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
A city made up of the overcomers of Israel - Heb11.
7 times in Rev:
I know thy works
he that overcometh
So when we have the teachings that the gentile church which now is, and that this church which is under grace is the bride, well, it just doesn't add up to God's Word that this church which has blessings in the heavenly places is the same church as those members who are found having blessings in that heavenly city, esp seeing as this heavenly city in it's charactor comes down from heaven to the earth positionally, contrasted by the church of the one body being never said to come to the earth.
Two completely different spheres of blessings. The bride is seen coming down from heaven to the earth, but the church which is His body is not blessed with that city, not blessed with Abraham, not blessed with Jacob, not blessed with Isaacc, not given a King over it, and does not have a priest just to name a few blatant differences.
Lets look at the usage of the word “riches”, as it is really unbounded in the scriptures of these prison epistles. In the NT the word riches is only used once in any of these unbounded ways until you get to Revelation, and this would be in Romans 11. And here in the prison epistles, the word “riches” is only used one time as a warning and not a “hope”, which is the assured gift of God. These promises and hopes and riches are different in every way. This is the verse that differs:
1Ti 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded; nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Phi 4:19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
That we should know what are the exceeding riches, His riches, all riches, riches in glory by Him, supplying all our needs by the exceeding riches of His grace. Oh, we just can’t imagine the unlimitedness of His grace.
Paul says, that whatever the hardships he had to endure, the richness of the gift is so glorious, that he bowed his knees for the cause of stewarding it for us and for the LORD the message that our “inner man” be strengthened by His Spirit. And that’s where it starts. It starts in our hearts, that is to say our minds. But first we need to know what it is, if it is going to be in our minds.
Eph 3:13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.
Are you comprehending the breadth, and length, and depth, and height of what the fullness of God is a little bit yet? How are you going to be filled with all the fullness of God? It is far above all, It is where Christ sits. And it is for you. Do you see your calling is the question. It is not on this earth. And what we shall discover is that it never comes down to this earth. Where our promises are, is far above all, and it is a sure hope. It is a certainty, if we are risen in Christ. And when He shall appear, we shall appear with Him in glory. But that isn’t going to happen if we don’t know how to “walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called.”[Eph4:1] therefore:
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Our “life is hid with Christ “in God”. Our life is not here on earth. I’ve said it before, [v8] these are what we are clothed in until we understand what is the riches of His glory to uswards. Then it is a natural thing to walk a worthy walk. It is a natural thing for Christ to put off the old man for us; for we can’t do it ourselves. He says He is going to give us new clothes.
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Put on Love. That’s what the word “charity” means.
Agape
agape¯ ag-ah'-pay From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast: - (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.
Put on Love, which is the bond of completion. Completion is just what the word perfect, and perfection is. Its not asking you or telling you that you have to be better than you are. No, this is something completely, completely different. This is something that He gives to you. You cannot do this, it is a gift, that comes from the knowledge we are fixing to cover. Yes. This is telling you that this “new man” is renewed in knowledge after Him who created You [v9, 10]. No, this putting on of the “new man” is not something you can do. He has to do it for you. And this is His love. He wants you to learn all about His plan, and He tells us all about it so that you may have it. And. That’s why we love studying our Fathers Word too, He has so much in store for those . that . seek . to . know . Him. Unsearchable goodness, exceeding riches, the fullness that fill all in all.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
These verses are full studies and in of themselves, but here, you need to know that your blessings are “all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, chosen before the foundation of the world, us. Of no other company is this ever said. This new church which is His body is different in every way. And this is what we came here for, for this is the beginning of your deeper studies, and deeper understandings, remember this verse:
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
And the LORD is most certainly going to come. He has made that perfectly clear. He will come in power and great glory to turn away Jacob from their blindness and deliver them from the bondage of sin, when they look upon Him who they had pierced.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge [the acknowledgment correctly]of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
The word “man” here is not the usual word ἄνθρωπος, anthro¯pos, which is just plain “man”. No, this word is the word used in the next chapter 5 times for the word “husband”, and it is G435 ἀνήρ, ane¯r, an'-ayr, A primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir.
God gives us teacher, pastors, apostles and prophets until we all come in the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of God in regards to this mystery, or this secret that has been “hid in God”.
And it is in regards to this “new man”, this “perfect man”, a full grown male. Not likened to a woman, or a bride, or a wife, but to a husband who is full grown, or perfect. God, you can check in all the Book, but God does not mix his metaphors. He means what He says.
Then we shall have this knowledge and the acknowledgement that we come as that perfect husband, We are His body, and He is the head.
Eph 4:3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
There is one body. He is the church, we are the church. Different in every way from anything ever been made known in any age. Kept until it was time to dispense the secret, called a “mystery”, to its rightful heirs which are His body who were chosen from before the foundation of the world. And the husband must love the wife. The bridegroom is making ready for the bride.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Nevertheless, whether you understand this part yet or not, you’re to love your wife even as yourself. Remember, chapters 4-6 are the practical portions of Ephesians, 1-3 the doctrinal. Earlier we looked at Eph 1:18. Now lets look at it in this new light of “all spiritual blessings”, ‘In heavenly places”, “where Christ sitteth” :
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
The word “his” above, refers to us. It is our inheritance. This is His glory, and it is our glory, our hope, and this is just the beginning of studying this part of the mystery in these prison epistles. This is a new sphere of blessing, a new calling, a new creation, a new revelation of truth that fills up this side of Acts, where God laid aside Israel for a time. It is far above all heavens, where He sits. Where the new man is made, those; “far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ”. Christ is our peace, or our finisher, hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us. Between us. The barriers between His covenant people and the unbelieving gentiles so far off. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Paul had already told us that, individually, any man is made a new creature if he is “in Christ”, but in the prison epistles it is a new company of people, not an individual. Different in every way, chosen in Christ without blame before Him in love:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
And the goal is to reach the perfect man, that husband man, the bridegroom.
The bridegroom is going to betroth the bride and Christ will have all things under His feet, both in Heaven and in the earth. His kingdom is so much more than we may have considered. The kingdom of heaven coming to the earth is the major substance of the Bible volume wise. It never dawned on Israel that there was a kingdom beyond that which was promised them, for it was hid in God.
Eph 2 says, and I think we miss the impact of this, says, Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Seated in the heavenly places with Christ Jesus. This is our hope, our glory. This is a wonderful calling where Christ is now seated. John 17 tells us He left His glory, to come down and minister to His people, and He asks His Father to bring Him back into His previous glory, and we are told that it is us that was chosen before the foundation of the world, before He left His glory, and that we are His glory. What do you think about that? It is just beyond anything any one has ever told us, but there it is for each of us to read and understand and to acknowledge and reach for. It is the fullness that filleth all in all.
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.
This has been rather broad, yet I hope it has been helpful to glean a glimps of the vast glories which lie in the things that are different, and that we begin to give a more serious consideration to what is being taught about the church being the bride, or the church being Israel or any such thing.
Is there a verse stating that Christ is the King of the church?
Do we have any verses stating the bride is made of a gentile membership?
How about some verses proclaiming that the Lord will not fulfill His promises to Israel, the bride?
Regarding the body of Christ, made of all nations, and called the church which is His body, being blessed in the heavenly places:
Is there even one verse declaring this particular church tol ever come back to the earth?
If not, then how can the callings of those members which are seen as coming back to the earth, and called Israel throughout the Bible, possibly be the same calling as the church which is blessed far above all in the heavenly places?
I will give pause at this point for address and redress if desired.
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