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Topic: Was Saul eternally lost or saved but backslidden?
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epouraniois
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posted
This is my understanding, and the thing is, is that when only 2 were saved alive into the promised land, God does not save someone by the blood of Christ twice, and he had given them 10 (number of God's government) oportunities to turn from their ways of thinking and towards Him, but they did not and so, in order for them to be saved by the blood of Christ, they had to pay for their sin by death, the death of the soul, which is but the body. For Adam was not given a living soul, he became one.
I don't know how many times Saul was given oportunity, but that fact is, he wouldn't be alive today, he would still have died, but maybe not in his sin.
I try to stick with the simplest of the presepts when thinking on such deep things, such as, none have I (Christ) lost but the son of perdition (Satan).
It is a hard line truth.
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
"1 Sam 31:4 Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. "
Bible, King James Version
2Sam.1
[1] Now it came to pass after the death of Saul, when David was returned from the slaughter of the Amalekites, and David had abode two days in Ziklag;
[2] It came even to pass on the third day, that, behold, a man came out of the camp from Saul with his clothes rent, and earth upon his head: and so it was, when he came to David, that he fell to the earth, and did obeisance.
[3] And David said unto him, From whence comest thou? And he said unto him, Out of the camp of Israel am I escaped.
[4] And David said unto him, How went the matter? I pray thee, tell me. And he answered, That the people are fled from the battle, and many of the people also are fallen and dead; and Saul and Jonathan his son are dead also.
[5] And David said unto the young man that told him, How knowest thou that Saul and Jonathan his son be dead?
[6] And the young man that told him said, As I happened by chance upon mount Gilboa, behold, Saul leaned upon his spear; and, lo, the chariots and horsemen followed hard after him.
[7] And when he looked behind him, he saw me, and called unto me. And I answered, Here am I.
[8] And he said unto me, Who art thou? And I answered him, I am an Amalekite.
[9] And he said unto me again, Stand, I pray thee, upon me, and slay me: for anguish is come upon me, because my life is yet whole in me.
[10] So I stood upon him, and slew him, because I was sure that he could not live after that he was fallen: and I took the crown that was upon his head, and the bracelet that was on his arm, and have brought them hither unto my lord.
[11] Then David took hold on his clothes, and rent them; and likewise all the men that were with him:
[12] And they mourned, and wept, and fasted until even, for Saul, and for Jonathan his son, and for the people of the LORD, and for the house of Israel; because they were fallen by the sword.
[13] And David said unto the young man that told him, Whence art thou? And he answered, I am the son of a stranger, an Amalekite.
[14] And David said unto him, How wast thou not afraid to stretch forth thine hand to destroy the LORD's anointed?
[15] And David called one of the young men, and said, Go near, and fall upon him. And he smote him that he died.
[16] And David said unto him, Thy blood be upon thy head; for thy mouth hath testified against thee, saying, I have slain the LORD's anointed.
[17] And David lamented with this lamentation over Saul and over Jonathan his son:
1Chr.10
[13] So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;
[14] And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.
Saul may have fallen on his sword but the Lord finished slewing him.
Since Saul was the Lords anointed do you think he was saved? Do you think he paid the price in this life by being slain because he didn’t destroy all that the Lord commanded and yet he was ready for heaven? If not, what does it mean to be the Lords anointed?
I would like your thoughts.
Thank you.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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epouraniois
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posted
I wanna say thank you to Bloodbought for the thoughtful study bringing the question, and to say, even though I am new here, welcome to the board,
and to share things, one, the bleeting of the sheep, Christ had told us He would leave the 99 for the one, but what is sometimes missed, is that that 1 was the one who new it was lost.
Secondly, and this is EXTREMELY important, the Bible does not speak in terms of eternity. He has not burdened our minds with such a thing, neither should we go beyond the bounds where God has veiled off. Even though the translators tried to use that word where possible, the Bible simply does not express things in terms eternal.
The Word instead expresses things in terms of age and ages, but we know from Romans 8 and 1Co 15:28 that there is more, much more that cannot enter the mind of man(kind) of what is in store after all things are put under His feet and the last enemy be destroyed, every knee bowed, every tongue confessed, all works burned in the consuming fire of whom God said 'I AM'.
What we have in this Book is what the first verse declares, a beginning movement, which we, by reading and prayerful study, discover to be the redemptive movement in which all limited heavens will be put away, made new, the former things past away.
Lastly, speaking to the frailty and utter disgrace we are to assume and acknowledge in the flesh, that we need God to stoop down and lift us up, that loving God more is the highest we can attain, Paul summed God's program up well, in speaking to both Israel's time to grow up AND to stop being babies, and graduate from the picture words to the real - from the milk which is for growth to the strong meat - and receive the kingdom and King, and even though they did not receive, they were treated as grown ups. They are given no more the picture words,have no instruction beyond what all nations have, the apostles completed word of God in the prison epistles to all nations.
Paul said so well how God is working, and this is true for overcomers and non alike imo:
2Co 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
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BORN AGAIN
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1 Samuel 9
14 And Samuel said, What means then this bleating of the sheep in my ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?
15 And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.
Saul thought that the sheep were "still good enough" to be used as a sacrifice to the LORD, while the LORD had declared it all to be vile enough for destruction.
We Christians are often just like Saul. Whereas the LORD has declared our righteousness to be "filthy rags, worthy of only of death and burial with Christ," yet we act, like Saul, as if we can "still help the LORD" with some of our righteousness which the LORD has declared to be "filthy rags".
To us also He says, "what is the bleating of our sheep that I hear"?
God bless, BORN AGAIN ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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epouraniois
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posted
All fall short. All sin. Christ died for all.
Saul was perfect. He continued on until the end. It is written, 'I would thou wert cold or hot'.
There is only one named to perish utterly.
Christ, the ultimate, and only, example of that which is good we have in all of Scripture gives us the reckoning and relationship of His manifestation to His original intent. We know the ending, most of us, and it is to this end that He is the purchaser of the purchased possession, the redeemer of all who sin, whether they be raised in resurrection unto shame or unto life. Both must still be worked out as Israel fulfills her role and promised place in His mighty outworking for all nations ever born.
Here is the example He gives us to follow of Himself, showing He has a plan, and it will be carried out unto perfection, that is to say, maturity.
Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28
For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29
Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30
Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
That word finish is the same word perfect, this one has the added ek, or out, to complete out the whole of His building, He being the foundation which none other can be laid.
Psa 81:11
But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me.
Psa 81:12
So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.
Psa 81:13
Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!
In my estimation, Saul of Tarsus never had Saul the king far from his mind of what is the end of a man without God in the world, wherein he would say, and this could be said of OT Saul as well,
Rom 14:7
For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8
For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9
For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
I perceive the message of the Bible to be that Israel only has He known, and Israel only shall He punish, and that consist of burning away as by fire the works, but they themselves, us too, shall be saved, so as by fire...
Saul's purpose then, God knowing the end from the beginning, was to show by the story of his life in that there is only One who can be both King and Prist. God has always worked out His picture stories with Israel using the lives and names of men.
2Co 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
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HisGrace
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Later Saul consulted a medium shortly before he died, which was a sin in God's eyes -
1 Samuel 28:8
So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name.
1 Chron. 10:13 {KJV}So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
1 Samuel 18:29 he became even more afraid of him, and he remained David's enemy for the rest of his life.
Looks like Saul never repented.
The KJV puts it this way.
1 Samuel 18:29 And Saul was yet the more afraid of David; and Saul became David's enemy continually.
Later on Saul confessed.
1 Sam 26:21 Then said Saul, I have sinned: return, my son David: for I will no more do thee harm, because my soul was precious in thine eyes this day: behold, I have played the fool, and have erred exceedingly.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
"1 Sam 31:4 Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. "
Bible, King James Version
1 match.
1Chr.10
[13] So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;
[14] And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.
Saul may have fallen on his sword but the Lord finished slewing him.
Acts 13:21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years.
22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
The Lord removed Saul because of his waywardness and because he was bringing dishonour to His name. Sometimes the Lord will remove a wayward believer.
Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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HisGrace
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1 Samuel 18:29 he became even more afraid of him, and he remained David's enemy for the rest of his life.
Looks like Saul never repented.
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WildB
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"1 Sam 31:4 Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. "
Bible, King James Version
2Sam.1
[1] Now it came to pass after the death of Saul, when David was returned from the slaughter of the Amalekites, and David had abode two days in Ziklag;
[2] It came even to pass on the third day, that, behold, a man came out of the camp from Saul with his clothes rent, and earth upon his head: and so it was, when he came to David, that he fell to the earth, and did obeisance.
[3] And David said unto him, From whence comest thou? And he said unto him, Out of the camp of Israel am I escaped.
[4] And David said unto him, How went the matter? I pray thee, tell me. And he answered, That the people are fled from the battle, and many of the people also are fallen and dead; and Saul and Jonathan his son are dead also.
[5] And David said unto the young man that told him, How knowest thou that Saul and Jonathan his son be dead?
[6] And the young man that told him said, As I happened by chance upon mount Gilboa, behold, Saul leaned upon his spear; and, lo, the chariots and horsemen followed hard after him.
[7] And when he looked behind him, he saw me, and called unto me. And I answered, Here am I.
[8] And he said unto me, Who art thou? And I answered him, I am an Amalekite.
[9] And he said unto me again, Stand, I pray thee, upon me, and slay me: for anguish is come upon me, because my life is yet whole in me.
[10] So I stood upon him, and slew him, because I was sure that he could not live after that he was fallen: and I took the crown that was upon his head, and the bracelet that was on his arm, and have brought them hither unto my lord.
[11] Then David took hold on his clothes, and rent them; and likewise all the men that were with him:
[12] And they mourned, and wept, and fasted until even, for Saul, and for Jonathan his son, and for the people of the LORD, and for the house of Israel; because they were fallen by the sword.
[13] And David said unto the young man that told him, Whence art thou? And he answered, I am the son of a stranger, an Amalekite.
[14] And David said unto him, How wast thou not afraid to stretch forth thine hand to destroy the LORD's anointed?
[15] And David called one of the young men, and said, Go near, and fall upon him. And he smote him that he died.
[16] And David said unto him, Thy blood be upon thy head; for thy mouth hath testified against thee, saying, I have slain the LORD's anointed.
[17] And David lamented with this lamentation over Saul and over Jonathan his son:
1Chr.10
[13] So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;
[14] And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.
Saul may have fallen on his sword but the Lord finished slewing him.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Bloodbought
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What kind of person was Saul? He was a good man, one who stood head and shoulders above the rest. The Bible says there was not a more goodly person than Saul.
1 Sam 9:1 Now there was a man of Benjamin, whose name was Kish, the son of Abiel, the son of Zeror, the son of Bechorath, the son of Aphiah, a Benjamite, a mighty man of power.
2 And he had a son, whose name was Saul , a choice young man, and a goodly: and there was not among the children of Israel a goodlier person than he: from his shoulders and upward he was higher than any of the people.
Israel had no king and wanted to have a king so they could be like other neighbouring nations. Saul was the people’s choice and the Lord sent Samuel to anoint him king over Israel and also told him what the Lord required him to do.
1 Sam 15:1 Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and *** .
Saul got his army together, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah, to do as the Lord commanded and smite Amalek, but look at v9, he did not utterly destroy all that the Lord commanded.
9 But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.
Saul and the people had their own reasons for sparing the best of the flock. They thought it would be a good idea to save the best, so they could sacrifice them to the Lord. Saul claimed to have done a good job.
13 And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the LORD: I have performed the commandment of the LORD.
14 And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?
15 And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.
The Lord was not pleased because Saul did not do as He said and utterly destroy all and the Lord rejected him.
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
Saul now confesses his reason for not destroying all. It was because he feared the people. The fear of man bringeth a snare Prov 29:25 and Saul was snared by fear.
24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.
1 Sam 26:21 Then said Saul, I have sinned: return, my son David: for I will no more do thee harm, because my soul was precious in thine eyes this day: behold, I have played the fool, and have erred exceedingly.
Saul is now on a downhill roller coaster. The Lord departed from him and now he turned to a witch to bring up Samuel for instruction.
1 Sam 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
The sin of refusing to obey God brought Saul to a sad end. He came to the point where he decided to commit suicide.
1 Sam 31:4 Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.
Saul did it the way that pleased the people instead of obeying the Lord, and seeing to it that sin was completely destroyed when he had the opportunity to do so and later he paid the consequences when sin destroyed him. If he had obeyed the Lord and utterly destroyed sin it could have been much different for him. It’s interesting to note that Judas who was also chosen by the Lord and shared with Him at the communion table, committed suicide because of his sin.
The message I see coming through in the story of Saul is this.
Christ died to destroy sin, but those who don’t do as He says because of fear of people and obey by simply trusting Him, there comes a time when the Lord will give them up and depart from them and finally sin will destroy them no matter how good a person they might claim or be perceived to be.
Was Saul eternally lost or saved but backslidden? I don’t know. He did believe in sacrifice 1 Sam 15:15.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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