|
Author
|
Topic: For The Women
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
It is a bit form fitting isn't it. ![[wiggle7]](graemlins/wiggle7.gif)
I guess one should not try to have a serious conversation while dressed as the Grinch!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
helpforhomeschoolers writes quote:
Personally, I think that it would behoove women in the church to express a little more shamefacedness today rather than looking for ways to say that the scripture does not say what it says.
provided that they do not have to dress like your current avitar. ![[1zhelp]](graemlins/1zhelp.gif) ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) ![[BooHoo]](graemlins/boohoo.gif)
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
Concordant Greek Text Sublinear -ultraliteral English
1Tim 2:9
Similarly, women also are to be adorning themselves in raiment, decorously, with modesty and sanity, not inwith braids and gold, or pearls or costly vesture,
Bullinger agrees with the AV 1611 Ed., the word is shamefastness, NOT, shameFACEDness.
The Concordance is NOT a dictionary. The Concordance IS a list of the words the translators chose to render the same word into, whether Greek/Chaldean/Aramaic/Hebrew, along with their respective occurrances, but not a dictionary.
Below the word is translated reverence. This is the only other place to check on how God intends by it's usage, His meaning:
Heb 12:28
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear
shameFACEDness does have the idea of shame, whereas shamefastness does not. Christian woman have NOTHING to be ashamed about.
Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English
Shamefaced
SHA'MEFACED, a. Bashful; easily confused or put out of countenance. A man may be shamefaced to excess.
Conscience is a blushing shamefaced spirit. Shak.
Your shamefac'd virtue shunn'd the people's praise. Dryden.
Shamefacedness
SHA'MEFACEDNESS, n. Bashfulness; excess of modesty.
Shamefastness is not in the Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English.
Shamefastness seems to be an archaic or Old English word:
From ISBE
Shamefastness
shām´fast-nes: The original the King James Version translation of αἰδώς, aidṓs, in Sirach 41:16 and 1Ti_2:9. Perhaps half a century later the spelling “shamefacedness” supplanted the better form, and continues in the ordinary editions of the King James Version. The Revised Version (British and American), however, rightly restores “shamefastness.”
Hence, I believe this to be a possible printers proofreading error which has never been corrected.
IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
A true Christian sould never wear anything that causes someone else to sin
Isn't that the whole idea behind immodest dress of any kind??
I should qualify that by saying that too much jewelery or make-up can make someone overly vain.
IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
It is not about being ashamed in the sense of the girl you described
she sould be ashamed but that is not what the scriptures is reffering to
A true Christian sould never wear anything that causes someone else to sin
A true Christian sould never look any man except her father or her husband in the eyes
Shamefacedness is the exact opposite of todays feminist equality movement
Shamefaced is a condition of the heart brought on by the Spirit
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
Dictionary Definitions (shamefacedness)
noun: feeling embarrassed about yourself.
Websters - Showing a feeling of shame.
Compared to to-day's 'fashions,' I can't see how women in Bible times should have been shamefaced.
My daughter and I, along with a friend, were in a Second Cup,(much like Starbuks} not too long ago, and there was a young woman sitting on a stool at the front of the coffee shop, with such low-riding jeans that you could see part of where the moon isn't supposed to shine (from behind) - in plain view for everyone to see.
Now that certainly is an example of when someone should be shamefaced. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
There is a way that seemeth right but the end there of is destruction
Spirit of Jezebel the spirit of the modern day women (Church member women) included) and the exact opposite of the
Spirit of Shamefastness or Shamefacedness is the Spirit of a true Christian
Here is a article (please read )
My desire is to share with you what the Lord has shown me regarding this issue ... what it is and what it means to the Lord. As I searched the scriptures on this, I realized how important it is to understand what being modest really means. The scriptures teach us that it is how we are to be as godly women both in our dress and in our conduct. My standard of modesty has changed greatly since it was first brought to my attention a few years ago. But the more I study and long to please the Lord and seek His heart on this issue, the more my standard changes in modesty. I will not get into fabrics, prints, length of sleeves and things of that nature as I truly believe as each of us seek the Lord’s heart individually- He will guide us in those areas.
Before we begin I’d like you to remember and consider a few very important things. The Lord ALWAYS has excellent reasons why He tells us to do certain things. Some questions for us to consider as He reveals His heart to us on this matter might be... do we love Him enough to obey Him? Would we obey Him even if we didn’t understand why He asks us to do certain things? Do we want our lives to glorify Him and His holy name? Then we need to be open to His word and stop the excuses and the reasons why we shouldn’t obey Him. Sisters, the scriptures teach that if we love the Lord Jesus, then we will obey Him. So let’s delve into the scriptures together as we learn what the Word of God says about serving the Lord in modesty.
As we begin this section on modest apparel, let’s first look at why we even wear clothing in the first place. This is revealed to us in the 3rd chapter of Genesis. Adam and Eve had just sinned in the Garden of Eden and for the first time, had the realization that they were naked. Their immediate reaction was to take whatever they could find and cover their nakedness. Clearly this first attempt by mankind to clothe themselves was inadequate in the Lord’s sight because after He pronounced the curses upon his creation, the first thing the Lord did was make them coats (long robes) of skins for clothing (verse 21). So the whole purpose of clothing is to cover one’s nakedness. The fig leaves were obviously lacking and the Lord made them coats to cover their entire bodies. How different this is from why most people wear clothing today. They wear it to enhance their appearance and to impress others.
And today, the least clothing one wears has become the more
acceptable, sought after standard of dress. But God, since early on, has set modesty as His standard.
So what is modesty and what does the Bible say about it? I’m sure most of us have some thoughts that come to mind when we hear and think about that word. My intent is to help Christian women understand what it is biblically and then discuss how it should be applied to our Christian lives. Let’s begin by looking at the definitions of modesty...
Not vain or boastful
Shy or reserved
unpretentious in appearance (humble, natural, plain in appearance)
Not making a display -- simple, modest
Orderly- of good behavior- well arranged- decent
I thought about these definitions as I meditated on the following passage...
1 Timothy 2:9-10... “In like manner also that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls or costly array, but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works”
Here we are given instruction in how to dress as godly women... in “modest apparel.” As I applied the definitions, I began to see more clearly how I should be dressing as a representative of the Lord Jesus Christ and as I studied His Word I also began to see why. Here are some of my conclusions...
My clothing should not be fancy nor fashionable (unpretentious in appearance)
My clothing should not be loud or draw attention to myself (not vain or boastful)
My clothing should cover most of my body (Not making a display)
My clothing should be plain and simple
Why is it important for a godly woman to follow these standards of dress? Well, when I began to grasp the original reason and purpose for wearing clothing- the Lord started to show me why my clothing was an important part of my Christian life. When I was first born again, I wore clothing that exposed my legs. I wore pants, and I put on tight shirts. Not once did it occur to me that I was ‘displaying’ my body to others. I wore my clothes according to the weather and for my comfort but not according to the scriptures! One of my greatest convictions was realizing that in displaying my body, I was disobeying (sinning against) the Lord and possibly causing others to stumble. No, I am not beautiful nor desirable to look at. (although, I hope my husband thinks so!) However, let’s be honest here ladies... men love to look at women. There are certain parts of our bodies that they lust after. There are many parts that they desire to look at. Our legs, our behinds, our chests, our waistlines etc... Some men are attracted to women’s arms and calves. The scriptures say...
“But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.“ (Matthew 5:28)
and also in Mark 9:42 it says... “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble (to cause to sin), it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.“
I surely did not want to cause lust in a brother by giving him something to look at. I began to see that concealing my body was an extremely important part of living a godly life. I began to wear skirts instead of pants. Pants were not modest on me and there was no way of getting around it. They hugged my behind, clung to my thighs and clasped my crotch. Not very modest I shortly realized. I then soon changed what I wore over my chest area as that is one of the most pronounced parts of my body. My goal was to divert attention from it, not draw attention to it. It didn’t take long before my entire wardrobe was completely changed.
I also was convicted on dressing to please man. What a bondage it was to be worrying about making sure I looked good to others. All those wasted years spent in department stores seeking for the perfect outfit with perfectly matching shoes to go with it. All that wasted money spent on the nicest dress with all the matching accessories to accompany it. All for what? So someone would tell me ‘how nice I look?’ Just so someone would notice? But who? Anyone I suppose. I didn’t care who so long as they noticed. Think about how awful that really is- to be concerned with what others think about how we look and what we are wearing. If we are looking to please men (mankind) then we are not being servants of the Lord! Let me say that again...IF WE ARE LOOKING TO PLEASE MAN THEN WE ARE NOT BEING SERVANTS OF THE LORD! Why can I boldly say this? Because the Word of God tells us this very thing in Galatians 1:10 ...
” For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.”
Whoever we are looking to ultimately please it is they who we are serving. Jesus said NO ONE can serve two masters. (Matthew 6:24) If we buy and wear our clothes in an attempt to enhance our appearance before men (people) we aren’t serving the Lord in this area of our life. Understanding and repenting from this is VITAL to being a godly woman and a true servant of Christ.
Continuing on with the 1Tim. 2:9-10 passage, I did some research on the words “shamefacedness” and “sobriety” Seems to me these words play an important role in this passage. Modest apparel apparently isn’t enough without the shamefacedness and sobriety. The scriptures teach that a godly woman should be modest not only in our appearance, but also in our behavior. What is shamefacedness? I learned that it means to have “downcast eyes,” to be “bashful.” A godly woman should be soft, gentle, quiet and shy. Never loud, boisterous, impulsive or domineering. And being an Italian native New Yorker, shamefacedness sure doesn’t come naturally! She also should be sober which in this passage means serious, having soundness of mind and self control. In verse 10 of the 1Tim. 2 passage it states...
“But (which becometh women professing godliness) good works."
Simply stated here, a woman professing godliness should exhibit good works. Her life should be infiltrated with godly actions and speech. She should display godliness in every area of her life.
1Peter 3:2 also touches on modest conduct. “While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear...”
Chaste here meaning “modest, pure, innocent, holy.” Conversation meaning conduct. So what it is actually saying is they (the husbands) should behold our modest conduct. In 1 Peter 3:4 it speaks about how a godly woman with a meek (gentle, mild, of soothing disposition) and quiet spirit is of a great price in the sight of the Lord. Is that us sisters? Are we of great price in the sight of the Lord? If not, we can be! As we learn these truths and hear God’s ways.. let us go forth in victory by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Titus 2:3-5 tells us of what the aged women are to teach the younger women. Verse 5 again touches on modesty.
“To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.”
Discreet means to be careful about what one says or does. Prudent- cautious in conduct. not rash, never acting or speaking in haste. God is so good to us and I am grateful for this clear instruction on how I need to behave as a godly woman. I know that studying this topic has been a great challenge for me. But I praise the Lord of heaven and earth that it is by His Spirit that I can even begin to succeed in this area.
The words in the end of verse 5 had my eyes bulging out of my head as I sat there gazing at them.
“That the Word of God be not blasphemed.”
Wow... I surely do not want to blaspheme the Word of God!! How about you sisters? I absorbed those words as the Lord shed light on what they were revealing. It brought me to repentance. I won’t go into detail as this is a whole other topic, however I will mention that if Christian women are not taught and do not do the things listed in that passage, the Word of God will be blasphemed. Take some time to meditate on those things. They sum up a godly woman’s life.
Going back to the first passage we looked at, verse 9 of 1 Timothy Ch. 2. It says that Christian women should not adorn themselves,
“ With braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array.”
Scripture repeats this again in 1 Peter 3:1-4. Sisters, we are twice instructed not to be fashionable people. Our adornment needs to be in our modest conduct, not in external things like... trendy clothing, expensive jewelry, fancy hair styles. and makeup. Yes, makeup.....the scriptures speak of one instance of Jezebel (an ungodly woman to say the least) and her applying of “paint” to her face (eyes) and adorning her hair to impress man. I was doing the exact same thing. And I can daringly say that most ( if not all) other women do it for the same reason. Also in Jeremiah 4:30 the Lord is speaking about the daughter of Zion (The land of Judah) at the point when they have completely turned from Him and He was pronouncing destruction upon them. He speaks about them as like unto a woman and says...
“And when thou art spoiled (not a good thing), what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thy make thyself fair.”
That was me, vainly trying to make myself fair. I spent many wasted years of my life applying makeup to my face. I needed to ask myself a most critical question... Why was I applying it? Did I apply it to please man or God? When I answered myself honestly, I threw it all out. It was all to please man. I repented of that and also of the fact that every time I had applied it to my face, I realized that I had been trying to improve upon God’s perfect creation. How ungrateful I was not being content with what God had specially given to me.
I surely have learned a great deal about modesty as I delved into these scriptures. My hope is that this study has enlightened and challenged you to press on in godliness and serve the Lord in modesty. May we continue to seek the truth in these things and turn from our vanities and turn to godliness in all areas of our lives.
Please e-mail me with any questions or comments, I would love to hear from you!
servant_of_the_lord@earthlink.net
Shamefacedness 1 Timothy 2:9
"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with SHAMEFACEDNESS and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array."
In one of the Bible clubs I belong to a member posts the following criticism of the King James Bible reading in this verse: " In 1 Timothy 2:9 the original KJV had "shamefastness" rather than "shamefacedness" which is what the modern KJV has. These are two different words, the latter of which found its way in the current text by accident. It is not a literal translation of the underlying Greek word either."
Keep in mind that this Bible critic himself doesn't believe that any Bible or any text is the inerrant word of God. He says: "I believe that God has preserved His Words perfectly in the multiplicity of manuscripts and versions that exist today. I do not believe, however, that He has perfectly preserved it in any one text, text type, or version."
This illogical double-speak is essentially saying that God has preserved His words in much the same way they are found in Webster's Unabridged Dictionary - they are in there somewhere out of order and mixed up with a lot of words that are not inspired, but nobody knows for sure which ones are which.
Even though this man admits he has no inerrant and inspired Bible, he still thinks he is somehow qualified to criticize the King James Bible and apparently assumes we are to yield to his mere opinion on the matter.
He makes three points about the King James reading of 1 Timothy 2:9; one is correct and the other two are totally wrong. He first says the original 1611 had the word "shamefastness". In this he is correct. In its history, the King James Bible has corrected some printing errors and updated the spelling of certain words, but it has never changed its text or the meaning.
The word "shamefastness" is merely the archaic form of the word "shamefacedness" - which is simply the combination of two common English words - shame and face.
The Online One Look Dictionary
shamefastness
Shamefast \Shame"fast\, Modest; shamefaced. --adverb Shamfastly; noun Shamefastness. [Archaic] See Shamefaced.
Shamefast she was in maiden shamefastness. --Chaucer.
Conscience is a blushing shamefast spirit. --Shak.
Modest apparel with shamefastness. --1 Tim. ii. 9 (Revised Version)
The Webster's dictionary I have here in my study lists Shamefastness and then shows
Shamefacedness as the synonym.
Shamefacedness
Merriam Webster Dictionary 10th edition
shame·faced
Function: adjective Etymology: ALTERATION OF SHAMEFAST (Caps are mine) 1 : showing modesty: bashful 2 : showing shame; ashamed - shamefaced·ly adverb - shame·faced·ness noun
The Bible critic is wrong on two counts. These are not two different words as such, but the same word with the same meaning but spelled in a different way. Webster's dictionary tells us this.
Secondly, he is completely wrong in saying this word "found its way in the current text by accident. It is not a literal translation of the underlying Greek word either."
It is no accident, but a deliberate change in the spelling of the word. It is not even an archaic word, but a perfectly acceptable English word that accurately expresses the thought of the passage.
Furthermore it would be impossible to give "a literal translation" of this word (aidous) since a literal reading would be "not seen" or "not known" which makes no sense and no version renders it this way. The NKJV has "with propriety"; NASB - "with modesty", and the NIV "with decency", none of which are "literal translations" either.
This man who pontificates his mere opinion on such weighty matters is apparently unaware of the meaning of the words involved or of the work of previous Bible translators.
The previous Bible translations that have rendered this passage using the older spelling of SHAMEFASTNESS are Wycliffe, Tyndale, Coverdale, Bishops' Bible, the Geneva Bible, the Revised Version and the American Standard Version of 1901.
The King James Bible merely updated the spelling of this older form of the word to now read SHAMEFACEDNESS. Hey, it was even ahead of the Revised Version and the American Standard Version! :-)
The word "shamefacedness" is not even an archaic word, as any English dictionary will tell you, and the Third Millenium Bible and the KJV 21st Century versions read: "In like manner also, that women should adorn themselves in modest apparel, with SHAMEFACEDNESS and sobermindedness, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly array." Notice that though these versions unnecessarily changed the word "sobriety" to "sobermindedness" they did not change the word "shamefacedness".
This Bible critic may not have an inerrant word of God or even know his own English language well enough to teach a junior Sunday school class, but there are thousands of us who believe the Book and will not trade it in for the foolish opinions of buffoons.
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
I think that Shamefacedness is an appropriate word. Shame is not just a word that deals with guilt... Shame can be an expression of modesty... The rhetorical question...."Have you no shame?" is an example of this... have you no modestly? Is there nothing that will not embarrass you?
Shamefacedness was considered a virtue. The underlying Greek word is 127 aidwv aidos ahee-doce’ and is used only one other place in scripture where it is translated "reverence"
Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence <127> and godly fear:
Personally, I think that it would behoove women in the church to express a little more shamefacedness today rather than looking for ways to say that the scripture does not say what it says.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
Very interesting epour--. I checked out a number of versions in BibleGateway.com and found only one which uses shamefastness, and that's The American Standard Version
1 Tim 2: 9 In like manner, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefastness and sobriety; not with braided hair, and gold or pearls or costly raiment;
Many versions go something like this -
New King James Version 1 Tim.2:9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing,
IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
1Ti 2:8
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
1Ti 2:9
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array.
In study of Linguistics and Etymology, frequently I run into Old English and Archaic words which are very problematic for the layman to get a handle on what is actually being said. Overall, the KJV is the best, but sometimes the Old English has simply been replaced by more modern words, leaving us in the lurch, so to speak.
At times I even run into typos. For those in the publishing field, it is well known that sometimes entire groups of proofreaders can all overlook, or miss, the same thing. The eyes can play tricks on us, or our minds are on something else, whatever...
Well, here is one that has never been corrected. I feel it will do a lot for the women, as Paul is often seen as one who is not of high favor to the women, which is simply not the case.
1Ti 2:8
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
1Ti 2:9
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array.
The word is shamefacedness. Well, what an aweful job for the woman this would be if they are to go around hanging their head down shamefully. In any case, why should you? If you're living according to a Godly life. The trouble is, in the original addition of the AV, it was not shamefacedness at all, but SHAMEFASTNESS.
The typo has never been corrected, somehow it got altered, and SHAMEFASTNESS had nothing to do with shame at all. It meant sensible, balanced. Nothing to do with looking down and looking modest.
I want you to dress in a sensible way. Of course the pagan women were apt to overdo things you know, you see how the eastern women ornament themselves in all sorts of ways, and as it is today, would advertise their trade by dressing up to look conspicuous.
Paul is just saying here, there is a limit, there is a modest way to dress and carry oneself, you dress sensibly, shamefastness.
So unless we know of these words we will have a real problem with Paul as far as his teachings upon women are concerned, seeing him as teaching things that have nothing to do with walking around shamefully at all. Women have nothing shameful about them at all in their natural state of walking with Godliness intention.
I do so hope this helps out a little bit.
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
