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Topic: Paul's Thorn His Vision?
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epouraniois
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posted
Maybe it could be named, but the HS didn't see it as relevant to His message? There are many things God has chosen to keep behind the veil.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
Christ was given a crown of thorns because He was the great sin bearer, He promised Paul sufficient grace so he could suffer the effects of the thorn for His sake.
Very interesting . We could liken the analogy of our one or two thorns, to Jesus' crown of many thorns, which symbolizes that, whatever we suffer cannot even come close to what He went through on the cross out of almighty grace and mercy for us.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
so, my dear bornagain Christian sister HisGrace, you write quote:
The number one quality for a servant of God is humility. He gave Paul his thorn in order to keep him humble.
if that is the case, what is your thorn? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) and if you cannot name a thorn, does that mean you are not humble? ![[hyper]](graemlins/hyper.gif)
BORN AGAIN by the ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
I guess this best describes my thorn -
Prov 9: 13 A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing. ![[updown]](graemlins/updown.gif)
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Bloodbought
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Something else I would like to add regarding Paul’s thorn.
It was deep seated. Here in 2 Cor Paul gives a comprehensive list of it’s effects.
2 Cor 11:18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
21 I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.
22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
None of this is the thorn its self, but they are the effects of the thorn. The thorn is the power behind these effects. It is a spiritual thorn.
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BORN AGAIN
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so, my dear bornagain Christian sister HisGrace, you write quote:
The number one quality for a servant of God is humility. He gave Paul his thorn in order to keep him humble.
if that is the case, what is your thorn?
and if you cannot name a thorn, does that mean you are not humble?
BORN AGAIN by the
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Bloodbought
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Paul’s thorn invisible and could not be named, Perhaps.
Paul said the reason he was given the thorn was to keep him from being exalted above measure because of the revelations he received. We are not told what his thorn was, but when we consider the effects of a thorn in the flesh the first thing that comes to mind is that it will cause pain. A thorn in the flesh will bring pain and suffering in the physical sense. However, the thorn Paul was referring to was a spiritual thorn, it was a messenger from Satan that he desperately wanted removed because of the pain and suffering it was causing him. He prayed three times for it to be removed, but the Lord said to him, my grace is sufficient for you, for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
Paul wanted the thorn removed, but after the Lord promised him the needed grace to bear it for His strength was made perfect in weakness, Paul now says he will glory in the effects of the thorn.
2 Cor 12:9-10 Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
Perhaps the thorn Paul speaks of was invisible so he couldn’t explain what it was, but he was able to explain its effects.
We read in John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
We can’t see the wind, but we can see and feel the effects of the wind. We can’t see the Spirit, but we can see and feel the effects of the Spirit.
In the same way Paul couldn’t see the thorn, but he could see and feel the effects of the thorn. He knew what it was to suffer for Christ’s sake. The thorn is the result of sin. Christ was given a crown of thorns because He was the great sin bearer, He promised Paul sufficient grace so he could suffer the effects of the thorn for His sake.
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epouraniois
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Yes Yes, and I see the apostle as one who was indeed 'thoroughly furnished unto all good works',
Wherein in his humility could beseech rather than command:
Eph 4:1
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2
With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3
Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
And I just know that Paul never got over it either, which is part of his being thoroughly furnished in that not only is he born a freeman in the Roman impire, but he persecuted Christ
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?
Isn't that the perfect answer?
The HS instructs to write it again:
Act 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And again:
Act 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
I truly do not believe the apostle ever got over it, which is God's way of perfecting him, and us too. We all need the wake up call. I did!
Act 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
Act 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
But this is the biggest thing on his mind regarding what made Paul so thoroughly furnished:
Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
Which is why I believe that Saul whose demise was with the witch of Enor was very much on Paul's mind, being desirous of the best things, and understanding as an overcomer in the dispensation of the grace of God his citizenship was now in heaven, preaching with prayer never ceasing.
And this brings a point, being that praying without ceasing is not some mantra repetition thing, it is our life when we in truth come to the point wherein we can do nothing but acknowledge every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, completely trusting in Him and receiving the faith of Christ.
Everyone is aware that italicized words are the Figure of Speech called 'ellipsis supplied', so lets just remove that and see how it becomes when we have the faith of a child:
For my love they are my adversaries: but I prayer.
Psa 109:4
I [am] prayer as the tear roll down my cheek, I [am] prayer in thanksgiving and longsuffering, I [am] prayer as my adversaries compass me about without a cause.
1Sa 10:6
And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
I prayer.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
but Paul was an extremely proud man, pride therefore, just may be the thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan
He says soon following:
2 Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
The number one quality for a servant of God is humility. He gave Paul his thorn in order to keep him humble.
Also, in everything we are supposed to give thanks. What I see in the above scripture is Paul's true humility by his giving thanks throughout his adversities, because in his weakness, Christ's power was able to flow with great power. He saw clearly that God always uses the weakest to carry out his most powerful plans.
1 Cor. 1:26-29 Remember, dear brothers and sisters, that few of you were wise in the world's eyes, or powerful, or wealthy when God called you. Instead, God deliberately chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise.
And he chose those who are powerless to shame those who are powerful. God chose things despised by the world, things counted as nothing at all, and used them to bring to nothing what the world considers important, so that no one can ever boast in the presence of God.
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epouraniois
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AFter much thought the arrival of something to say has pressed me to remind everyone that Paul, and we know he had others write his letters while he only signed them, but Paul was an extremely proud man, pride therefore, just may be the thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan
He says soon following:
2Co 12:10
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
This is also saying, when the going gets tough the tough get going.
Though too, many of Paul's words which might seem at first to be that of holding himsef high, came at times when he was obviously put in the position of defending his very apostleship as the Jews and proselites followed him around telling everyone who would listen that he was lying, filling there sin up alway, filling their sin up to the full.
Not until the revelation of the Mystery is revealed does the apostle see that the overcoming works of the flesh which Isreal the concision was to preform in their turning and going out as the channel of blessing to the nations is set aside can he come to the place within himself to say:
Phi 3:2
Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Phi 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Phi 3:4
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Phi 3:5
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Phi 3:6
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Phi 3:7
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phi 3:8
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Phi 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Phi 3:10
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phi 3:11
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
The Diaspora Jews and Israelites were Paul's "thorn in the flesh", I think currently.
Maybe how Paul handled the harrassment was his thorn. Perhaps he had a certain undesirable spirit or attitude that had to be uprooted through a new sanctification 70 x 7.
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BORN AGAIN
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while some husbands and wives can probably be used by Lucifer-Satan as convenient conduits to the person that Lucifer-Satan is "really" after, the other spouse who perhaps is serving the Lord more than the other spouse, and there is conflict in the family: "your adversary shall be someone from your own household". both wives and husbands can be that "evil spouse."
However, in Paul's case I think it was the constant harassment from the Diaspora Jews and Israelites that he got while Paul was trying to preach to the Gentiles.
I realize that Paul went into the synagogue in Thessalonica and Beraea, and spoke first to the Diaspora Jews and Israelites--but afterward the Jews, whom Jesus said were "of your father the devil", resisted Paul at every turn as Paul was now trying to preach the good news to the Gentiles.
The Diaspora Jews and Israelites were Paul's "thorn in the flesh", I think currently.
may the LORD God of Israel bless us, BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
As an aside: I've heard people say that Paul's thorn in the flesh and the messanger from Satan was his wife. ![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif) I consider that a joke. ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif)
Oooh - that HAS TO BE a joke.
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WhiteEagle
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
Ezekiel 2:6
And you, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with you, and you do dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
Ezekiel 28:24
And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them who despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
Judging from the above verses, it seems to me that the thorn, or the restistance, or the haters, the rebellious, the stout against, where the Diaspora Jews and Israelites.
They were "messengers of Satan to buffet Paul" and Paul asked the Lord three times to do something about them presumably "so that Paul would be less hampered preaching the gospel".
But the Lord thought it wise for Paul to keep being challenged by these "living, resisting thorns", lest:
2 Corinthians 12:7
Lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
hello.
May the LORD God of Israel bless all who participate on this CBBS, BORN AGAIN
Jesus said, "I will make you fishers of men"
Thanks for putting Paul's "thorn in the flesh" in context.
The thorn was a messenger of Satan. Those who claim to have thorns like Paul need to remember that. It was also allowed as a chastisement on Paul to keep him humble.
As an aside: I've heard people say that Paul's thorn in the flesh and the messanger from Satan was his wife.
I consider that a joke. As no where does it say Paul was married. Anyway it shows how some people show their Freudian slips.
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BORN AGAIN
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2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
Ezekiel 2:6
And you, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with you, and you do dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
Ezekiel 28:24
And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them who despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
Judging from the above verses, it seems to me that the thorn, or the restistance, or the haters, the rebellious, the stout against, where the Diaspora Jews and Israelites.
They were "messengers of Satan to buffet Paul" and Paul asked the Lord three times to do something about them presumably "so that Paul would be less hampered preaching the gospel".
But the Lord thought it wise for Paul to keep being challenged by these "living, resisting thorns", lest:
2 Corinthians 12:7
Lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
hello.
May the LORD God of Israel bless all who participate on this CBBS, BORN AGAIN
Jesus said, "I will make you fishers of men"
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BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace writes re Paul quote:
He was hand-picked by Jesus for a special assignment of spreading the Good News.
And not just spreading the good news, but spreading the good news of Jesus's resurrection on the third day, to the Japhetic Gentiles who basically had "no knowledge" of what the tribe of Israel/Judah had created on the mountain of Israel/Judah, in terms of salvation.
The Shemite Paul of the tribe of Benjamin had to go tell people who had "no Old Testament history or knowledge."
Perhaps that was even better, because it allowed Paul to set forth the good news of Jesus without resistance from the Diaspora Jews and Israelites who did have preconceived ideas about what the Messiah should look like, few, if any, of which ended up matching the reality of Jesus:
"we beheld His majesty", "full of grace and truth".
God bless, LORD God of Israel, bless sister HisGrace's family, as she faithfully contributes here. Amen?
BORN AGAIN by the
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HisGrace
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Next to Jesus I personally believe that Paul was the most Spirit-filled and wise man in the Bible.
He was hand-picked by Jesus for a special assignment of spreading the Good News.
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said, "Go amd do what I say. For Saul (later Paul) is my chosen instrument to take my message to the Gentiles and to kings, as well as to the people of Israel. And I will show him how much he must suffer for me."
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Whether it was his thorn, there is no doubt that Paul had a vision problem. Yet, no one doubts his great faith in God. Even if the quote thorn was not the vision issue, he still was not healed from the vision problem.
We should Stop listening to the WOF people and stop judging a person spiritual health by there physical health.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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BORN AGAIN
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Ezekiel 2:6
And you, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with you, and you do dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
Ezekiel 28:24
And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them who despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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I personally don't believe that we ever have a clear definition of what Paul's weakness was, because when we read about his thorn, we immediately think about our own weaknesses and, like Paul, are prompted to turn them over to the Holy Spirit's power for victory. We then can identify personally with the scriptures in our own lives.
The popular belief seems to be that Paul had poor vision. I believe he was blinded on the road to Damascus, only in order for God to get his attention. He had been on an avid mission to destroy Jesus' followers. He had rounded up many followers in Damascus and brought them back to Jerusalem in chains.
After The Lord had made it clear to Saul/Paul that he had a great purpose for his life the scales fell from his eyes.
Acts 9:17,So Ananias went and found Saul. He laid his hands on him and said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road, has sent me so that you may get your sight back and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
Instantly something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he got up and was baptized.
Another Scripture which is often quoted is Galatians 6:11. Some versions say large letters, but the KJV is as follows -
"Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand."
Barnes' Notes on the New Testament - Re.Gal.6:11
"How large a letter. Considerable variety has existed in regard to the interpretation of this phrase. The word here used and translated how large \~phlikoiv\~ means, properly, how great. Some have supposed that it refers to the size of the letters which Paul made in writing the epistle --the length and crudeness of the characters which he used. Such interpreters suppose that he was not well versed in writing Greek, and that he used large letters, and those somewhat rudely made, like the Hebrew. So Doddridge and Whitby interpret it; and so Theodoret, Jerome, Theophylact, and some others. He might not, says Doddridge, have been well versed in the Greek characters; or "this inaccuracy of his writings might have been owing to the infirmity or weakness of his nerves, which he had hinted at before." Jerome says that Paul was a Hebrew, and that he was unacquainted with the mode of writing Greek letters; and that because necessity demanded that he should write a letter in his own hand, contrary to his usual custom, he was obliged to form his characters in this crude manner"
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