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Author
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Topic: What is happening to this place?
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epouraniois
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quote:
No Hebrew historical narrative starts with a list of qualities. The explanation ALWAYS follows the general statement of where the history starts or is headed. Thus, Genesis 1:2 would be rightly seen as an explanation of the earliest moments following the creation of the time/space/mass continuum in Genesis 1:1.
Well, ambiguetous statements aside, I prefer to side with God's commentary, so when God says He did not create His creation tôhû, He created it to be inhabited, I can trust that I do not stear myself wrongly by disagreeing with God.
We have a thus saith the Lord here:
He created it not in vain *tôhû*, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
H8414
תּהוּ
tôhû
BDB Definition:
1) formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
1a) formlessness (of primeval earth)
1a1) nothingness, empty space
1b) that which is empty or unreal (of idols) (figuratively)
1c) wasteland, wilderness (of solitary places)
1d) place of chaos
1e) vanity
H922
בּהוּ
bôhû
BDB Definition:
1) emptiness, void, waste
These are the words 'without form and void' in Gen1. 2.
These words are only used of destruction following judgment in the Bible. They are never used of creation. NEVER.
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, He created it not in vain *tôhû*, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Likewise, Adam didn't 'was' a living soul, Adam 'became a living soul. Lot's wife didn't 'was' a living soul, she 'became' that way.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The earth didn't 'was' tohu va bohu, but 'became' that way. In beginning God created the heavens plural and the earth to be inhabited. They became without form and void.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
In the LXX, we have the word abyss from Revelation here in v.2, 'the deep'.
The deep, or the abyss is also not creation, but of judgment and destruction.
What ever may sound reasonable to man, remember that we are given God's understanding, and by that we shall be judged, for the Cannon of Scripture is the only measure of truth.
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Caretaker
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http://www.carm.org/evo_questions/gaptheory.htm
The gap theory postulates that between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2 there was an entirely different creation which, some claim, was wiped out by a "Satan's Flood," and after which the earth was re-formed and the six days of Genesis creation commenced. The gap is said to have involved great eons of time. This gap theory was formed in response to the uniformitarian idea of long ages first applied by geologists in the nineteenth century. The gap theory is contradicted by the Bible itself on a number of counts.
1. Genesis 1:2 gives us a list of three qualities: the earth was formless and empty; darkness covered it; and the Holy Spirit was hovering, or vibrating (same word in the Hebrew) over the waters. No Hebrew historical narrative starts with a list of qualities. The explanation ALWAYS follows the general statement of where the history starts or is headed. Thus, Genesis 1:2 would be rightly seen as an explanation of the earliest moments following the creation of the time/space/mass continuum in Genesis 1:1.
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http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c003.html
Many people have tried to place a gap of indeterminate time between the first two verses of Genesis chapter 1. There are many different versions as to what supposedly happened in this "gap" of time. Most versions of the "gap" theory place millions of years of geologic time (including billions of fossil animals) in between these two first verses of Genesis. This is the "ruin-reconstruction" version of the gap theory.
However, this undermines the gospel as it allows for death, bloodshed, disease, and suffering before Adam's sin. Because most "ruin-reconstruction" theorists have accepted the millions of years dating for the fossil record, they have thus allowed the fallible theories of scientists to determine the meaning of Scripture.
Some put the fall of Satan in this supposed period. But any rebellion of Satan during this gap of time contradicts God's description of His completed creation on day six as all being "very good" (Genesis 1:31).
All versions of the gap theory impose outside ideas on Scripture and thus open the door for further compromise.
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epouraniois:
This says “in beginning”. There is no article in the original. The word heavens is plural, as it is the second form singular, being the dual, therefore having the meaning two. There is the singular, the dual and the plural in the Hebrew, the plural meaning 3 or more.
The meaning is that there was a movement, a beginning movement, and that movement was to create the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
We find in this next verse that the world became without form and void. Tohu va boho in the Hebrew. The word “was” is really the word “became” here, just like it is in Genesis 2:7, and other places. So, we should want to know a little about what happened. Lets go to two other places where these words are used and see how they are used.
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Caretaker:
epouraniois takes his preconceived agenda and wraps it up in scripture to lend it credence. But he must embrace and declare the definition of "was" to be "became", which is only one definition, the others being "to be", and "exist" among others.
Genesis 1:
1:1In the beginning God created * the heaven and the earth.
1:2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
was:
Strong's Number: 01961 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
hyh a primitive root [compare (01933)]
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Hayah TWOT - 491
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
haw-yaw Verb
Definition
1. to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
1. (Qal)
1. ----- 1a
2. to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass 1a
3. to come about, come to pass
1. to come into being, become 1a
4. to arise, appear, come 1a
5. to become 1a
1. to become 1a
2. to become like 1a
3. to be instituted, be established
4. to be 1a
6. to exist, be in existence 1a
7. to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time) 1a
8. to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality) 1a
9. to accompany, be with
10. (Niphal)
1. to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about
2. to be done, be finished, be gone
This is his attempt to extrapolate his eschatological viewpoint onto the clear reading and interpretation of God's Word, by the wresting of scriptures from out of their proper context.
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http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/454
“From the Beginning of the Creation”/“From the Creation of the World”
In Mark 10:6, Jesus declared concerning Adam and Eve: “But from the beginning of the creation, Male and female made he them.” Christ thus dated the first humans from the creation week. The Greek word for “beginning” is arché, and is used of “absolute, denoting the beginning of the world and of its history, the beginning of creation.” The word in the Greek for “creation” is ktiseos, and denotes “the sum-total of what God has created” (Cremer, 1962, pp. 113,114,381, emp. in orig.). In addressing this point, Wayne Jackson wrote:
Unquestionably this language puts humankind at the very dawn of creation. To reject this clear truth, one must contend that: (a) Christ knew the Universe was in existence billions of years prior to man, but accommodating Himself to the ignorance of His generation, deliberately misrepresented the situation; or, (b) The Lord, living in pre-scientific times, was uninformed about the matter (despite the fact that He was there as Creator—John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). Either of these allegations is a reflection upon the Son of God and is blasphemous (1989, pp. 25-26).
Furthermore, Paul affirmed the following:
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse (Romans 1:20, emp. added).
The apostle declared that from the creation of the world the invisible things of God have been: (a) clearly seen; and (b) perceived. The phrase, “since the creation of the world,” translates the Greek, apo ktiseos kosmou. As a preposition, apo is used “to denote the point from which something begins” (Arndt and Gingrich, 1957, p. 86). The term “world” is from the Greek, kosmos, and refers to “the orderly universe” (Arndt and Gingrich, p. 446). The term “perceived” translates the Greek noeo, which is used to describe rational, human intelligence. The phrase, “clearly seen” is an intensified form of horao, a word that “gives prominence to the discerning mind” (Thayer, 1962, p 452). Both “perceived” and “clearly seen” are present tense forms, and as such denote “the continued manifestation of the being and perfections of God, by the works of creation from the beginning” (MacKnight, 1960, p. 58).
Who perceived the things that were made “from the beginning” of the creation? If no man was there for billions of years (because man “is a relative newcomer to the Earth”), who was observing—with human intelligence—these phenomena? There can be no doubt that Paul was teaching that man has existed since the creation of the world and has possessed the capacity to comprehend the truth regarding the existence of the Creator; accordingly, those who refuse to glorify Him are without excuse. It likewise is inexcusable for one who professes to believe the Bible as God’s inspired Word to wrest such verses merely to defer to evolutionary geology. Yet examples of that very thing are all too prevalent.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
unregistered
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posted
What is Really Going On Here
It seems like there are a lot of pieces missing when we read our Bibles sometimes. That there is something that all the writers are trying to tell us, with all the different perspectives and peoples, that maybe we could better know what it is we’re supposed to do. Any good that we may do, while on this earth, it is Christ working through us. It isn’t us doing the good and we cannot take any credit in it. We give all the glory to Christ. If you or I take any glory from that, then it is stealing. It doesn’t belong to us. Its Christ working through us, we can take no credit for it. And we’ve got to be awful careful about that because the flesh is so deceitful. There is a terrible disease that is mentioned in the Bible, and I hear it is contagious, and sometimes even fatal. Its called puffed up. I want to take an overview, or really a step back and look at some things in this paper.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
This says “in beginning”. There is no article in the original. The word heavens is plural, as it is the second form singular, being the dual, therefore having the meaning two. There is the singular, the dual and the plural in the Hebrew, the plural meaning 3 or more.
The meaning is that there was a movement, a beginning movement, and that movement was to create the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
We find in this next verse that the world became without form and void. Tohu va boho in the Hebrew. The word “was” is really the word “became” here, just like it is in Genesis 2:7, and other places. So, we should want to know a little about what happened. Lets go to two other places where these words are used and see how they are used.
Jer 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
So, looking at this, we find fierce anger, broken down, waste and void. In other words judgment. That is the same usage we find in Genesis 1:2, there must have been a judgment to cause this the earth to become tohu va bohu, or “without form and void”. Lets go look at another passage with a similar prophecy of the desolation of the land.
Isa 34:11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
There it is again, “line of confusion” and the “stones of emptiness”. Tohu va bohu, “without form and void”. Judgment on the land. And all these are unclean birds that nest in Satan’s tree. We aren’t going to go there.
Isa 34:12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.
It is interesting to note that in Daniel, Michael had to help Gabriel, and it took him 21 days to arrive because of the war in heaven; and after this Michael would need to go off to fight with the prince of Greece. Well, these princes weren’t men, no, they were other angels. That can give us some things to explore in God’s word.
In Genesis 1:2 we have judgment on the earth before Adam and Eve were ever on it. There were six days spent by our creator in the reconstruction of this age. In Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 you can find some reasons for that. It had to do with a fallen angel, the most beautiful, the most wise, the anointed cherub.
So a lot of people would like to right things, to make things better in this ole world, but they just don’t know what they are up against. It has to do with the powers of the prince of the air, and principalities in the high places. But we are also told that our Father has a plan and is in control. There isn’t anything going on that God isn’t working out to the end of the redemption of the world, that is, His children, and we are told we are to be thankful to be able to suffer for Christ sake:
Phi 1:28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
Phi 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
But, we ourselves also do have a promise that is specific to us. Unlike Israel, chosen since the foundation of the world, our choosing was from before the foundation of the world. Now, this is the mystery, it was hid in God, no one could ever find this in the Bible, it was a secret. What is this secret?
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
2Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
Life is in Christ, and that tells us a little more on what the promise is from Ephesians 3:6. in this next verse we get the rest of it.
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Now, this is in contrast to the one who was a liar from the beginning. Now this “life” was promised before the age-times began, that word “world” is “age” in the Greek. So this was eternal life and promised in Christ to the members of the church which is His body, and this before the ages began, and before the foundation/overthrow of the world, which takes us back to Genesis 1:2.
So it is in hope, promised in God, before the ages began, and the promise is eternal life.
So here is revealed something, concerning the plan and purpose of God, and that before the destruction of the judgment of the ages, we have been promised life in Him. This the promise, had been hidden and we have at least a part in a promise. That, set in motion, was this thing that God was going to, someway, bring back the restoration that was His Glory, and His Honor that He had before His creation was found in judgment. Because any thing that would dim His Glory, question His righteousness, or in any way slight His Holiness, to put a blot on His honor, His Name, is the opposite of life. It is death.
So only those who will survive are those who believe in His name, where God can dwell. Between Genesis 1:1 and the goal of the ages, when God can be all in all, there will be a lot of destruction, the tares will be burned, Satan and his angels will have their part in the lake of fire, the sifting will have to take place, and all who survive then God can be all in all. God is all, but He is not in all. But when all these creatures are destroyed, there will be a time when God is all and in all.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Then what happened in Genesis 1:2 can never happen again. There is a parallel when all of Israel will be saved. When all of Israel believes. There won’t be any unbelieving Israelites. We don’t have that time right now, but God will have this come to pass through His movement that He initiated before this age began. Through His purposed first movement, ‘In Beginning’.
All that is asked is to just believe, to continue in faith unto the end, that every one can comprehend the creator by the creation, there is no excuse. After the 1,000 years of teaching, where men will be fed at God’s table, no one will be able to say they haven’t had the opportunity to have and receive life everlasting, and Israel will teach as a nation of priestly kings in the earth, and the church which is His body will be in the super-heavenlies. And the angels will go through the heavens proclaiming the everlasting gospel, as it has been written in the stars, that God is the creator, and all shall hear it. . Every tongue shall confess; every knee will bow. The LORD will have all things under His feet, manifestly accepted, and the last enemy destroyed, with all families both in heaven and in the earth, and then God shall be all in all.
Paul echoed this in Athens, with all their idols, Paul preached God the creator, and I guess it might even get so bad again that all that can be preached is that God is the creator. Anything more than that is just too much, the time too short. God is blinding some peoples minds. We can see it in our schools and so forth, even around the world right now. They are unable to bear any more of the truth than that. Details are too much to bear. When Paul was writing to those at Corinth, it was that they were a carnal people, and he determined not to preach any thing other than Christ and Him crucified, and that was as far as he could preach. He couldn’t give them the deeper things of the gospel. He even told them that they were attaching themselves to gifts like immature babes. He told them to grow up.
There were a few who were more perfect, he mentions them later on, that he was able to speak to them about words of wisdom, but most of them couldn’t comprehend any more than Christ and Him crucified.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
So here we have the 3rd heaven, as we had two in verse one. How Job and some of those other ones knew this, well, I guess they were closer to God than we might naturally think on.
Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Curtains were the covering in the tabernacle I might add. There it is. God has stretched out the heavens as a curtain, for Him to dwell in, and in this place He will work out His mighty plan where there is redemption that He may be justified. He is working it out under this tent, this limited heaven.
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Till the heavens be unstitched. We find more about this in Revelation. It seems that there is coming a time when this age will be brought into a meeting with the next age, and the dead shall rise, and those who are alive and remain will also rise, or rather, be changed into that immortal body, that glorious body, while others will simply appear with Christ when He appears, as He who is our life is hid in God till the appearing.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
That word foundations is the word “sockets”, and references the tabernacle in the wilderness, and the silver they used was the redemption money for the children, and that held the temple up. So God is working out His plan of redemption, and here is a picture of the foundation of it.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
When was that? It must have been before the overthrown which caused the judgment of Genesis 1:2 that we read about in Jeremiah chapter 4. I’m just trying to get you a picture of the overall plan of what is going on. Lets look at some more picture.
Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
Job 26:8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.
Job 26:9 He holdeth back the face of his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it.
Job 26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
Job 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.
There is more picture of the tabernacle in Exodus 25:10 and on, and if you get the dimensions, you’ll find that the holy of holies is a perfect cube. Nobody could look in it, except the high priest once a year and not without blood. What is interesting is that when you get to the prison epistles you find that in the dispensation of the mystery, that this group has their inheritance in the holy of holies.
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
The words ‘with the saints’ is the same word the holiest of all in Hebrews 9:8 above. This is a much higher calling than revealed and given to Israel and those that have their hope and promise in the earth. This is why we are to love one another with all patience and understanding, to assume a walk that is worthy of this high calling, so others may too, search these things out and acknowledge the gift that is the church which is His body, giving thanks always, building up the brethren in edification, earnestly guarding the unity of the Spirit in the bond of love.
I was hoping that by putting this together it might somehow help to see that some of those little things in the verse of our Bible that seem so important now, might fall away in the midst of the lager movement, which was began at the beginning.
Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ
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