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Author Topic: have you come to destroy us?
epouraniois
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Let me see if I can say it with my words, but check them always against the Bible.

God is very clear that 'all Israel shall be saved', that He will have His new covenant with His covenant people. In Jer31 I believe it God declares that unless someone can stop the sun from rising, then in no way will He change His mind.

Rom 11:27
For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Rom 11:28
As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Rom 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. *without repentance here means without regret or without change of mind*

Rom 11:30
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Rom 11:31
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Rom 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Rom 11:33
. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Rom 11:34
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

Rom 11:35
Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

Rom 11:36
For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.


What we really are facing here, is that gentiles were, unbeknownst to anyone, not even the Scriptures written in heaven, was the secret that God had chosen a people from before the foundatioj of the world who have an heavenly calling. This calling is the one hope which the gentile church titled His body, and the one body where the sphere of blessing is heavenly in charactor and position.

Israel will still and always be God's preimenent people of the earth.

The overcomers of Israel has a heavenly inheritance with her position being in the New Jerusalem which comes down to the earth from heaven.

The church of the one body is the third calling, given a third adoptive inheritance, and completely seperate from any other calling. The word used is create, created, &c, and make. Look at how it is used, from Eph2.15:

Rev 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Mk 13:19
For [in] those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

1Tim 4:3
Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Rev 10:6
And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

1Cor 11:9
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Rom 1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Eph 3:9
And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 3:10
And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Mt 19:4
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,

Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

Eph 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Israel, chosen since *or from* the foundation of the world. - Mat25.34

Church of the mystery, the church which is His body chosen before the foundation of the world. - Eph1.4

Clearly these are two different called and chosen, by reason of when they were chosen, and by name, and by sphere of blessing.

Only the church of the prison epistles have the high calling as their calling. Why is it called this?

Because His calling is the same ONE as our calling. If we can understand what is His calling, then we know what is our calling. Read the first three chapters of Ephesians for the rest of your life, for it is the doctrine of the church which is His body, and it is this church which is truth for today.

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BORN AGAIN
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well, I'm interested in that Gentile church notion.

are you saying that the Gentile church is granted what the house of Israel/Judah rejected, but the consolation prize goes, as it were, to Israel which will....what?

God bless, BORN AGAIN [Cross]

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epouraniois
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True so very true, as the leadership could recite chapter and verse, they didn't know what it meant.

It is the same today. Once man(kind) has it in mind that they have an understanding, and that it is such and such a way, God no longer has a faithful servant who is usable, instead He has a no it all who refuses to continue on to the end, for the Word of the Lord is rich, the depths unplumible, just to glean a glimpse of God's understanding requires the faith of an innocent childlike belief that even without understanding, the child understands one thing, the word can be trusted.

When a child of God believes this way, the Lord has someone He can work with. Too many of us seem to believe we understand a verse, but I can say from my short walk in the Lord that every verse is ever pregnant and waiting for that one who will simply believe, continue in His word, wherein the Lord is able to reveal the deeper connections made perfect as silver tried in the furnace 7 times.

Silver now, is a metal that once heated, once the dross comes to the surface, the heat and the action MUST be handled in perfection in order to remove the impurities, it has to be at just the correct momment or it is loss.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter" (Prov 25:2)

“And ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when ye shall search for Me WITH ALL YOUR HEART” (Jeremiah 29:13)

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BORN AGAIN
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Christian brother epouraniois wrote
quote:
pretending you are Israel, back then, your people all trained for centuries for one thing, to receive Him.
That reminded me of my recent reading of Alfred Edersheim's The Life and Times of Jesus Christ, in which brother Alfred E. so beautifully destribes how the Messiah who Yahshua-Jesus ended up being was so far removed from what Israel-Judah had imagined that no Israelite/Judahite of that period could have written the New Covenant.

The Yahshua-Jesus of the New Covenant was not anything like what the Rabbis had been writing about in the Talmud and Mishnas and Rabbinism of the 1st century A.D. The type of Messiah of was so remotely removed from the Messiah of the imagination of what Israel-Judah thought the Messiah would look like when He "suddenly came to his temple." (Malachi 3-4)

God bless, [Cross] BORN AGAIN

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epouraniois
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I didn't see this earlier and certainly didn't mean to disregard any questions, please forgive me for my tardiness.

If you could be more specific please, I will check this thread to see, as there are several things which I might address which may or may not get to the question being asked.

Thank you.

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WhiteEagle
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quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
pretending you are Israel, back then, your people all trained for centuries for one thing, to receive Him:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

even if you were a disciple, you didn't understand He was to Ps22/Is53. you did understand that you thought you understood, but you did not, not until He had risen and opened your eyes supernaturally in Luk24.

They you went out as you were sent, and they killed and imprisoned all your fellow apostles. You were told that since you counted yourselves as a people, unworthy
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
.......

God will again, and soon imo, take up His might outworking with Israel again, but we read this will occur now in resurrection, and she shall go out and teach the nations in their resurrection, while the church is manifest far above all, enjoying a feast of wedding, where Israel is the bride, and the church is called to be a full grown anēr, Eph 4:13; Eph 5:32

I'm having trouble following your reasoning and what you are trying to say.

Can you be more specific or concise?

I believe the Church is the Bride of Christ. It will be composed of Jews, Gentiles together. All peoples, tongues and kindreds. ie the world.

The Jews who are saved through Christ follow the same gospel as Gentiles who are saved through Christ. (Galations 2:11-16)

There in no different "gospel" for the Jews at this time of the Gentiles.

Thanks for your consideration in helping me understand what you are saying.

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Contrary to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (Lord, send whom You will), Truly, our first communion is when we:

Acts 16:31
“Believe on (in) the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved."

I had "first communion" as a child in the Roman Catholic Church (RCC), but a lot of good it did me. I knew nothing and believed in nothing except for what I had learned until then, and Jesus raising from the dead on the third day was not part of what I had learned by the time I had my "first communion" with the RCC.

I have my memorial RCC "card" commemorating my RCC "first communion."

But I have a "better" memorial than an RCC card, I have found Jesus Christ, my True First Communion:

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If.

Luke 18:13
But the publican {the hated Jewish, Roman-collaborator tax-collector who lined his own pockets by taxes the Jews more than the Romans had asked from his Jewish countrymen}, he {this publican}, standing afar off, would not so much as lift up his eyes to heaven, but struck upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Hosea 6:6
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Matthew 9:13
But go you and learn what that mean, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew 12:7
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

May the LORD God of Israel bless all who participate on this CBBS, I am BORN AGAIN

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epouraniois
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pretending you are Israel, back then, your people all trained for centuries for one thing, to receive Him:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

even if you were a disciple, you didn't understand He was to Ps22/Is53. you did understand that you thought you understood, but you did not, not until He had risen and opened your eyes supernaturally in Luk24.

They you went out as you were sent, and they killed and imprisoned all your fellow apostles. You were told that since you counted yourselves as a people, unworthy
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

And even this was so hard fought against, they hold court at the synogague only to find 4 necessary things the gentiles were to follow, and not the full burden of the law, graphed into Israel, the true tree un naturally, but your people are not provoked to emulation, only to more hardness of heart.

After 35 plus years of the Lord's longsuffering, after all Israel had heard, the dreadful quote of Isaiah is proclaimed for the third and last time and Israel proceeds into her absolute blindness until the times of the gentiles be filled.

It is at this point that the Salvation of God is sent to all nations, the Lord Christ Jesus is now amoung the nations. And not amoung Israel. They are blind, destroyed as a people, scattered as a remnant.

The secret of God is revealed to the nations. Not to your people Israel. But you don't know it because you are killed.

Now pretend you were a gentile, standing outside the middle wall of partition every Sabbath day, hoping to receive something of the instruction the Jews were receiving. You were so glad to receive the truth. You wanted nothing but more of it. You would only receive it from one apostles, the apostle to the uncircumcision, Paul. He couldn't be everywhere at once, but he was imprisoned, leaving him to send you letters. In these letters even, it is to the Jew first, then to you.

You don't understand much, as they are addressing the Jews, and all the OT quotes by the prophets, the Psalms and Moses you have never had any instruction is, but you have a love for the true God.

You are told not to be puffed up, for if the tree is cut down, you will also be cut down, and it looks like the tree if fixing to be cut down, you were only graphed in to provoke Israel. You have no blessings of your own. You will be made to partake in Israel's spiritual things. In the carnal things, you are to serve Israel.

Then the Jews are cut off, the city destroyed. You have no one to teach you. The few believing Jews were always under attack, and you were under attack for believing in Jesus Christ as well. You had to be secret to remain alive.

You watched as the Jews were killed. Now those who did beleive were around no more. You now have no instruction. What happened to that God you listened about, were always in hope to hear more of, standing outside the synagague every Sabbath day.

What happened? Their God didn't save any of them. They are all gone, you have no more instruction.

Paul is imprisoned again. Now Paul writes and you are fortunate enough to read Ephesians, Colossians, Phil, 2 Timothy, but it is not what you had heard before. They were right. This Paul guy is a false teacher. They were right.

Israel is spiritually lost. Israel never helped you. You are spiritually lost. You always were. What could you possibly believe.

Maybe you can go to the new church, or start a new church, there could be some non Jew priests, yes, that's it, the Jews had priests, lets mimick them, start some churches, ignore that false apostles new teachings about going to heaven and being seated at the right hand of God. Who ever heard of such a thing anyway?

Paul speaks on his prison ministry, the very one you also cannot bear, for you want Israel's things and not your own:

2Ti 1:13
Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 1:15
This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me

2Ti 4:16
At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.
2Ti 4:17
Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear

Today, people do not want to hear they have been sent their own apostle. People still want Israel's things. Well, the Lord has sent an apostle to steward His message that was hid in God, never revealed until after Israel is set amidst the nations.

Truth for today is written in the letters which follow after those written when Israel was in view, written after Acts28.28, when Israel is set aside into her great time of utter blindness and abayance.

Truth for today doesnot leave the gentile believer standing outside the middle wall of partition at the synagogue.

Truth for today is found only in the prison epistles, where God has made us meet to be partakers, not of Israel's spiritual things, but of the saint in the light, far above all, chosen in Him from before the foundation of the world to the inheritance of every blessing which is spiritual that God has to give.

God will again, and soon imo, take up His might outworking with Israel again, but we read this will occur now in resurrection, and she shall go out and teach the nations in their resurrection, while the church is manifest far above all, enjoying a feast of wedding, where Israel is the bride, and the church is called to be a full grown anēr, Eph 4:13; Eph 5:32

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TEXASGRANDMA
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If Satan was to destroy the promise from God to Isarel then all the promises would mean nothing. Our salvation would literally be in jeporady. But God will prevail and He will save the remenet that He has set aside in the House of Israel. I could no more doubt that, than to doubt my own salvation.

Just like the line from the old song: "IF GOD SAID IT, I BELIEVE IT!!!"
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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epouraniois
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quote:
Can anyone show me in the OT what God's plan would be if Israel failed to receive her kingdom?
quote:
Yes, I can show you that. The promises to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah concerning a multitude of people as the sand of the sea and the stars of the sky, that promise was unconditional.
That does not address the question, which is, that since Satan seems to have won out, Israel being prevented from receiving the kingdom and deliverance from bondage, no healing of the nations took place and the nation was scattered, the city leveled, the people killed, as Paul said, if it weren't for a remnant, they would have been as Soddam and G. and nothing in the OT providing them with instruction on what she were to do if they refused to receive her kingdom.

The extremely few gentiles who did learn of the true God were only used to provoke Israel. None of them were blessed by Israel, rather, they were made partakers of Israel's spiritual things by God, and not because of Israel pouring out her blessings upon the gentiles. They fullfilled nothing but the Lo-ammi prophecy. Nothing. This now, will not occur until resurrection, when Israel will be in that future position of being made ready to teach the nations.


quote:
The promise of a multitude of people for the house of Israel (to Ephraim and Manasseh) especially was a unilateral promise made entirely and alone by the LORD God of Israel, saying, “By Myself have I sworn.”
There is quite a bit more to Israel's promise than multiplying their seedline.


Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

They have not even possessed the land yet, little loan the gates of her enemies. They have so very much left to fulfill, but all that is in abayance till the times of the gentiles be filled.
The promise of a multitude of people did not depend on the goodness or badness of the people of Israel; it was a unilateral, unconditional promise of the LORD.

quote:
So, epouraniois, when you say

quote: Can anyone show me in the OT what God's plan would be if Israel failed to receive her kingdom?

My answer is that the promise that the house of Israel and the house of Judah will come up out of their graves, is a unilateral promise from the LORD, and thus Israel may fail or succeed, but the LORD will perform His unconditional, unilateral promise either way.

The Lord cannot do it. Not without Israel's faith. Israel alone is judged by her works, not so with us.

Amo 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Mat 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


I beg to differ because according to God, there is nothing written in the OT regarding this nearly 2,000 year parenthisis, this 'gap' which now exists between the Lord's words:

Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this Scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

2,000 years and only seperated by a comma. How important it must be then to rightly divide the word of God? Christ Jesus practiced rightly dividing.

Joh 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

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BORN AGAIN
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The bornagain scribe BORN AGAIN wrote
quote:
My answer is that the promise that the house of Israel and the house of Judah will come up out of their graves, is a unilateral promise from the LORD, and thus Israel may fail or succeed, but the LORD will perform His unconditional, unilateral promise either way.
The bornagain scribe epouraniois answered
quote:
I beg to differ, as Satan has a plan to sit above the throne of God in the north. God has a plan to defeat Satan with the lowest of the elements of His creation, proving that the creature cannot stand on creature strength, but from every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. {bold by BA}
dear brother epouraniois, I appreciate you being here, you know a lot of Greek, and that is good for this Christian Internet Bible Church (so-called CBBS). I hope you stay.

But I have trouble following you. In fact, I have the same trouble following you as I did AMH. Maybe that's on me, maybe that's on y'all. My verdict is still out on that.

But be all that as it may, why do you, epouraniois, say "I beg to differ" when I say that "the LORD God of Israel has some unconditional promises out there still to fulfill", which I said the LORD God would filfill regardless of whether Israel or Judah had been "good or bad."

Indeed, I note in Jesus's statement to His disciples:

Luke 14
16 Then said He to him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:

17 And He sent his servant at supper time to say to them who were bidden {Israel/Judah}, Come; for all things are now ready.

18 But they all with one consent began to make excuses. The first one said to Him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I have to go and see it: please let me be excused.

19 And yet another said {regarding the invitation to the supper}, I have bought five yoke of oxen and I must go prove them: please let me be excused too.

20 And yet another said {regarding the invitation to the supper}, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come right now.

21 So that servant {who had gone to invite} came back again and showed his lord what they had said. Then the lord of the house became angry and said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and the lanes of the city, and [b]bring in here the poor {dear brothers and sisters in Christ, that is me}, and the maimed {dear brothers and sisters in Christ, that is me}, and the halt {dear brothers and sisters in Christ, that is me}, and the blind {dear brothers and sisters in Christ, that is me}.

22 And then the servant said, Lord, it is done as you have commanded, but there is still room.

23 Then the lord {kurios, absolute owner} said to the servant, "Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that My house may be filled."

24 For I say to you, That none of those men who were bidden shall taste of My supper.

dear brother epouraniois, I wanted to ask you about this verse Luke 14:24.

If none of those who were bidden (the ones who were "bidden" meant Israel/Judah), if Yahshua-Jesus said that "none of them will taste of His supper, doesn't this supper take place in the Prince's holy oblation of land by Jerusalem of Ezekiel 45ff?

God bless, [Cross] BORN AGAIN

I apologize, this time I got long-winded, "for retired folks only".

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Carmela
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God has been showing me that some of the wounds of my past started in the womb. My mother rejected me before I was even born because she blamed being pregnant with me as the reason her and my father started arguing and eventually broke up.

God showed me this when I was praying once and I asked Him why I struggle with a few things. I had to work through a process of healing.

I had never realized this could happen, but it does. God is faithful to reveal it to us if we seek Him for healing.

So, we know that we must be careful because an unborn baby is aware of feelings and behavior in the womb and they can be wounded by it.

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epouraniois
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Remember JtB leaped in the womb, then Elizabeth understood Mary with the holy child-

Luk 1:39
And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Judah;
Luk 1:40
And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.
Luk 1:41
And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luk 1:42
And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.


This also tells us at what point in time God thinks a baby is alive and is precious.

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Carmela
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Thank you again BA for the compliment. I still have lots to learn but I am blessed to be in bible school because it forces me to study the bible in depth, whether I want to or not. [Big Grin]

I haven't actually thought of that much. When I was reading in the gospels though, I noticed that it appeared John the Baptist hadn't seen Jesus before He showed up to be baptized because John wasn't sure who the Messiah was, but when Jesus showed up he immediately knew and said something like, behold, the Lamb of God. I wasn't really studying this though so I didn't compare it with other scriptures. It just stood out to me as the first time they may have met.

Because of Jesus' deity though, Mary and Joseph had to travel a lot in order to protect Him in His younger years. This may have caused Him to not grow up with some of his family members.

I just read your post again and a thought came to me. I don't know if it's right or not but Jesus said He wasn't accepted among his own people. If John would have grown up with Jesus, maybe that would have caused him to have even more doubt of Jesus' deity. That may also be what caused him to have some doubt.

My teacher had taught us a lot of stuff that I found really interesting today. I will start a new post and share it although I can't go into as much detail. I will do a new post so I don't interrupt this one.

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I beg to differ, as Satan has a plan to sit above the throne of God in the north. God has a plan to defeat Satan with the lowest of the elements of His creation, proving that the creature cannot stand on creature strength, but from every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Now, if all there was to God's plan is to save Israel in resurrection, none of us would need to be here. If God is going to do this redemptive work without using the vessels of flesh to make known the manifold wisdom of God to the principalities and powers in high places, then for all intensive purposes, it would appear that Satan had won. Israel is unusable, as their last book states, 'no remedy'.

God came in the flesh that Israel might receive of her kingdom so covenanted:

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.


So far, Israel has not inherited the land from the two great rivers.

Gen 35:12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.


So many many things are yet to be fulfilled for Israel to complete all the things written in the Book, and we know from the Lord's own words that He cannot force anyone to love Him. Even that would leave the devil as victor. In fact, God cannot even work with those who do not believe Him:

Mat 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The Lord's return is dependant upon Israel,all they had to do was believe.

If God had not had a further plan, it would appear that Satan had won, for Israel has no instruction whatsoever of what to do had they not inherited the kingdom by receiving the Christ whom for centuries they had been trained to acknoweldge.

Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


Although that is written, the Lo-ammi prophecy is written, NOTHING is written concerning the last nearly 2,000 years of Israel being without her priestking savior, nothing in the OT, and nothing till we get letters written to us who are not Jews speak of anything which could be done to overcome Satan with the vessels of mercy, the man who walks under the sun, the flesh man.

So, God reveals that He had kept secret a portion of His plan. Peter speaks to this. The angels obviously were aware that there must be something more in God's outworking, since it is clearly stated that Israel would fail in the time of her visitation:

1Pe 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

That is not the knowledge of God, rather worldly knowledge.

Dan 12:8
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

God tells us in the prison epistles that He had not revealed, that by the vessel Paul is given that which completes the word of God, that what was not written was in fact and in truth hid in God from ages and from generations. I believe Him.

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dear brother epouraniois writes
quote:
Well? What would have happened? Can anyone show me in the OT what God's plan would be if Israel failed to receive her kingdom?
Yes, I can show you that. The promises to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah concerning a multitude of people as the sand of the sea and the stars of the sky, that promise was unconditional.

The promise of a multitude of people for the house of Israel (to Ephraim and Manasseh) especially was a unilateral promise made entirely and alone by the LORD God of Israel, saying, “By Myself have I sworn.”

The promise of a multitude of people did not depend on the goodness or badness of the people of Israel; it was a unilateral, unconditional promise of the LORD.

So, epouraniois, when you say
quote:
Can anyone show me in the OT what God's plan would be if Israel failed to receive her kingdom?
My answer is that the promise that the house of Israel and the house of Judah will come up out of their graves, is a unilateral promise from the LORD, and thus Israel may fail or succeed, but the LORD will perform His unconditional, unilateral promise either way.

God bless, [Cross] BORN AGAIN

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Brother epouraniois writes
quote:
Well? What would have happened? Can anyone show me in the OT what God's plan would be if Israel failed to receive her kingdom?
Yes, I can show you that. The promises to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah concerning a multitude of people as the sand of the sea and the stars of the sky, that promise was unconditional.

The promise of a multitude of people for the house of Israel (to Ephraim and Manasseh) especially was a unilateral promise made entirely and alone by the LORD God of Israel, saying, “By Myself have I sworn.”

The promise of a multitude of people did not depend on the goodness or badness of the people of Israel; it was a unilateral, unconditional promise of the LORD.

So, epouraniois, when you say
quote:
Can anyone show me in the OT what God's plan would be if Israel failed to receive her kingdom?
My answer is that the promise that the house of Israel and the house of Judah will come up out of their graves, is a unilateral promise from the LORD, and thus Israel may fail or succeed, but the LORD will perform His unconditional, unilateral promise either way.

God bless, [Cross] BORN AGAIN

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dear sister Carmela, I just wanted you to know you excellent is your post, the LORD is blessing through the Holy Spirit in you. Carmela wrote
quote:
As I read through Mark and study, I keep seeing where Mark is bringing out who knows Jesus and who doesn't. The demons know Jesus, the disciples know Jesus through revelation, the Pharisees do not know Jesus. The Holy Spirit knows Jesus, John the Baptist knew who Jesus was. There is a difference that I see in Mark between those that know Jesus and those that don't. Those that knew Jesus, were living a lifestyle that was different from the others. You can see Jesus reflected in their lives and attitudes.
Amen to all that, sister.

Regarding this[quote]John the Baptist knew who Jesus was.]/quote]I would add that John interestingly had his doubts, John sending his disciples from prison to ask Yahshua-Jesus, "are you really Him who was to come" (in my paraphrase).

And Yahshua-Jesus said, "the lame walk and the blind see and the deaf have the gospel preached to them" (in my paraphrase).

It is intestering that John was Jesus's cousin, but cousing Yahshua-Jesus lived in Nazareth of Galilee and cousing John lived in the hill country of Judah, and later in the wilderness.

I suppose it is not that surprising that they did not know each other a little better? What do you think, sis?

God bless you and your family, as you are willing and on fire enough to go to Bible college. [thumbsup2]

BORN AGAIN [Cross]
Where is Pinecrest? God bless, BORN AGAIN by the [Cross]

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From the first pages of Genesis we find introduced that great spiritual foe. Mat13 and Christ Jesus says plainly, an enemy hath done this.

Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

The families of today believe the opposite, they believe that their god Lucifer will win, and they will reign for a thousand years while the Christians are exterminated, the Jews, and all those who will not submit. They believe that Christ has failed. Judaism and Zionism are very far removed from being similar.

The dragon of antiquity, it would seem, has come so close, so many times at having secured his goal, Noah alone was perfect in his pedigree *Gen6*, so many times the firstborne all killed in a Satanic attack designed to destroy the seed of Genesis3. 15. And when Israel had failed to receive her king in glory during the offer of the Acts, WELL?

Well? What would have happened? Can anyone show me in the OT what God's plan would be if Israel failed to receive her kingdom? It isn't written. That was revealed later. God had known Israel would be overtaken by the evil seed who sat in the seat of Moses then, and even TODAY. If God had not revealed another portion of the outworking of His Salvation, it would have appeared the devil had won.

And that is what Paul speaks of when in reasurance, is always a matter of faith, and some were being handled by that wicked one, saying the resurrection had past:

1Th 3:5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labor be in vain.

1Th 3:10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?
1Th 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
1Th 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
1Th 3:13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Paul continues on to tell the Jews there that they are still waiting for the resurrection, it hadn't happened yet. This is the entire purpose for this 2nd letter:

2Th 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

They were being percecuted. Colossians is a church under direct Satanic attack. As a church of the one body, Colossia believers were to high in their learning to be fooled by the trickery of the material things, instead at Colossia the temptations were spiritatual induced, trying to superimpose over Christ as the Head, other things that they had not seen, but puffs up the fleshy mind...

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

All of this is directly related to the conditions of today, and has to do with Christ Jesus throwing the money changers out of His Father's Temple, making merchandice, remind you of Satan?, and Eph4. 13-15?

1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Heb 3:18 And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

That verse has a direct bearing, imo, on what they had overcome, what they were learning and believing had happened to them too. But now they could hear it. The believers could hear it. It is part of their self forgivness, like thearpy, wheather Peter, Paul, Simon, they all told them straight, put them on the fence, a choice always had to be made immediately.

Below James speaks to the same thing, that the Jews had been deceived, the brethren need to be converted if possible.

Jam 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

These apostles everyone, loved their kinsmen, they wanted to see them all be resurrected unto life, and not unto shame and death. But it is written, none hath been lost. All Israel shall be saved.

Peter saw that Satan had won that round. Satan had defeated Israel. Israel was to be dispersed, sheep for the slaughter.

Peter speaks to the fact from Babylon that the dispensation of promise had come and gone with Israel found lacking. Tricked, remaining in unbelief:

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

John will get around to speaking of this too.

But God revealed that He had a secret, that Satan had been defeated, but there is more outworking to be done due to Israel's blindness.


Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

And our calling is not in the things of this earth, for our calling, as the church of the one body, has something to do with these, the very aristocracy of the heavens are at the time present learning something of the manifold wisdokm of God by the church:

Eph 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Well, this is the very same church brought forth which had been hid in God till it is now revealed. And to this church is given a more glorious title, that being:
Eph 1:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19
And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23
Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.


1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

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Carmela
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BA in the Spirit realm, there is good and evil. I have been studying Mark this quarter. I think what Mark is doing here is trying to show those who "know" Jesus and those who don't. We see in those verses that the devil knows who Jesus is. I don't think it was ever hidden from it. It may have been discussed in heaven as you said, or Jesus may have already been with God in heaven as I have heard some people say they believe. I don't remember why they said they believe this.

However, I believe the devil knows Jesus because Jesus is the only authority that is higher than Satan's authority. So, Satan know immediately that Jesus had the authority over him. The devil has already been conquered because from the beginning, God had authority over him.

As I read through Mark and study, I keep seeing where Mark is bringing out who knows Jesus and who doesn't. The demons know Jesus, the disciples know Jesus through revelation, the Pharisees do not know Jesus. The Holy Spirit knows Jesus, John the Baptist knew who Jesus was. There is a difference that I see in Mark between those that know Jesus and those that don't. Those that knew Jesus, were living a lifestyle that was different from the others. You can see Jesus reflected in their lives and attitudes.

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Mark 1
23 And there was in their synagogue {of Capernaum} a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,

24 Saying, Leave us alone; what have we to do with you, you Jesus of Nazareth? Are you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God.

Now, indeed, Yahshua-Jesus had come to destroy the works of the devil:

1 John 3:8
He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

It is interesting to me that the devils knew that Jesus would be the one who would come to destroy the devils.

Was this plan publically discussed in heaven before the devils fell from heaven like lightning and were cast to the earth?

It seems to me that heaven would have been the only place where the devils could have heard it?

thank you. I am BORN AGAIN by the [Cross] of Yahshua-Jesus.

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