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Topic: what time is this?
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epouraniois
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I want to ask a very serious question, or give you some questions we all have or should think about.
What is the secret that was hid since the foundation of the world?
Do you think that not being intamently bound to what this secret is can in any way prepare God's children for all God's truth?
Why are the letters to the Jew first, where the gentile is made a partaker of Israel's spiritual things more important to you than the only letters God every sent to the non Jews where the secret of God is finally made known?
The prison epistles alone make known the following:
the mystery of his will - Eph 1:9
by revelation...the mystery - Eph 3:3
knowledge in the mystery of Christ - Eph 3:4
the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God - Eph 3:9
a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church - Eph 5:32
the mystery of the gospel - Eph 6:9
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest - Col 1:26
the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ among you, the hope of glory: Col 1:27
the acknowledgement of the mystery of God - Col 2:2
the mystery of the faith - 1Ti 3:9
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. - 1Ti 3:16
the mystery of Christ...make it manifest...wisdom...redeeming the time...speech...seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.
Col 4:3 - 6
Let me ask one more question.
Are we to be swayed on every wind of doctrine, or do we search out every word in every verse prayerfully acknowledging only what God hath said, and hath he not said that the world shall be deceived? So who will you believe, the Lord, or the world?
Look how powerful the enemy is:
And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time . - Luk 4:5
I know, believe it, I know. Just ask yourself, what do the churches of this world talk about, what do they offer, what do they ask you for? What does the Bible offer, and what is offered therein?
Where do we find truth, in the churches, or in, 'it is written'? I am a firm believer that God means what He says and says what He means and that His words are very specific and not contradictory.
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epouraniois
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I beleive you are correct, against everything the Bible manifestly declares, the church of man does not set its affections on things above where Christ sitteth at the right hand of God in the heavenly places, it covets Israel's things, falsely believing God made no further revelation, that they are instead, some form *there are many* and some way transforming themselves into an Israel/National amalgomation. They refuse to receive the plan of Salvation being of the entire creation, and that God has a family church in heaven, called the fullness of Him that filleth all in all.
It is the only church with the fullness, the pleroma. The entire Bible is about the pleroma. But this is, unfortunately, not taught anywher but in the Bible. God is ALL, but God is not ALL IN ALL. God becoming All in All is the last thing we are told about.
I am not making this up for crying out loud, I am quoting Scripture. I am not joining that which God has made seperate.
I uphold what the apostle faithfully stewarded to us all, that we read Ephesians *100's of times - esp the first 3 chpts* and we do it prayerfully.
If you do this prayerfully, God will reveal this to you. Paul says you cannot find this out by studying the OT, or the Acts espistles. Paul says it was a secret hid in God, that even though they, Israel and those enjoined into them knew what is the hope of their calling, nevertheless, we must pray to know what is the hope of His calling. As this church is His body, His calling IS our calling. He is the King of the kingdom, and Lord of all creation, and Head of the church, His body the fullness of Him that filleth all in all.
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BORN AGAIN
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dear epouraniois, I will leave the subject alone for now since I still am having trouble believing it. But let me ask you this one last question.
Is it not true that almost all Christians believe that the church and Israel/Judah will merge into one group in the land of Israel when Jesus comes?
thanks, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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posted
You've really got me thinking now, with certain accompaning thoughts I release:
Amo 8:11
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Amo 8:12
And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
Amo 8:13
In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
I beleive that these days are come. I believe that the preachers cannot teach us the strong meat because they themselves are not weaned from the teet, but are instructed wholly by the doctrines of man, the systems of man, in the buildings of man.
BETHEL MEANS HOUSE OF GOD:::-=-
Amo 3:14
That in the day that I shall visit the transgressions of Israel upon him I will also visit the altars of Bethel: and the horns of the altar shall be cut off, and fall to the ground.
Amo 4:4 Come to Bethel, and transgress
Amo 5:5
But seek not Bethel...Bethel shall come to naught.
Amo 5:6
Seek the LORD...there be none to quench it in Bethel.
Amo 7:13
But prophesy not again any more at Bethel: for it is the king's chapel, and it is the king's court.
Fables. The word translated ‘fable’ in the A.V. is the Greek muthos, and the
five occurrences are as follows:
1 Tim. 1:4 Neither give heed to fables.
1 Tim. 4:7 Refuse profane and old wives’ fables.
2 Tim. 4:4 Shall be turned unto fables.
Tit. 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables.
2 Pet. 1:16 Not followed cunningly devised fables.
Most of us have been influenced at some time or another by the wisdom and
the instruction of Aesop’s fables. He so persistently inculcated morality that
the people of Delphos took his life by throwing him from the top of the rock!
Aesop’s fables fall under the heading of parables, and have no other purpose to
serve but instruction. Fables, however, are never spoken of with approbation
in the New Testament, and Peter’s description ‘cunningly devised’ (sophizo)
could be applied to the four occurrences in Paul’s epistles. Some of the
fables mentioned by Paul appear to refer to the Cabalistical interpretation of
the Scriptures favoured by the Gnostics. In no passage is the fable considered
as an innocent and useful mode of conveying truth, but as the weapon of the
enemy.
In 1 Timothy 1:3,4 it is opposed to sound doctrine,
it ministers questions and is contrary to ‘a dispensation
of God’. The A.V. reads ‘godly edifying’, the R.V., however, reads ‘a
dispensation of God’, the Greek reading oikonomian, ‘dispensation’, instead of
oikodomian, ‘edifying’. In 1 Timothy 4:6-8 the fable is put over against
‘words of faith and sound doctrine’, and to godliness which is profitable both
for the life that now is, and of that which is to come. Titus 1:13,14 places
the fable in antagonism to the soundness in the faith, and declares that these
fables ‘turn away from the truth’. It is this ‘turning away’ from the truth
that is the deadly result of the fable, and which alas will be the character of
the closing days of this dispensation. If the reader opens a modern commentary
on the Bible, he is more than likely to meet the word ‘myth’ before he has read
many pages, and the word myth is the word translated fable in 2 Timothy 4:4.
‘They shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto
fables (or myths)’.
When it is realized that the two words mystery and myth are derived from
the same source, it will be seen that when the truth of the Mystery is
withstood, there may be a judicial turning of the mind to myth. This ‘turning
away’ of 2 Timothy 4:4 is but the consequence of an earlier movement. ‘All
they which are in Asia be turned away from me’, said Paul in chapter 1, and
that fatal turning away from Paul that is so characteristic of much teaching
today, can but lead to the apostasy of which Paul prophesied. Let us hold fast
the faithful testimony of the Mystery, even though all around us are seen to be
turning to their myths. The one is of God and of the truth, the other is of
the Devil and of the lie. We shall need the whole armour of God for the evil
day that is drawing near. The Mystery is ‘truth for the times’.
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epouraniois
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I must add something of importance here, in regards to the many questions which we might ask, the many things we might desire to know, and to this end I recall that it has not entered, nor can it, the mind of man of what God has in store for those who love Him.
an excpert from EW Bullinger
"For I am conscious of nothing in myself, nevertheless am I not
justified ... So then do not judge anything before the time, until the
Lord shall come ... Learn in us the lesson of not letting your thoughts
go beyond the things that are written" (1 Cor. iv. 4-6).
the
Scriptures nowhere claim that they contain the record of all God's
purposes and ways, but that such glimpses of those unfathomable depths
and infinite heights are given us as our finite capabilities will
allow. If I turn to the writings of men I find that many of them deal
with subjects which go entirely beyond the inspired limits of
Scripture. Revelation starts with God as Creator, "In (the) beginning
God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen. i. 1). Man's theology is
not content with this, it must probe into that over which God has drawn
a veil. Man's theology and philosophy come to us and say, "God never
had a beginning." Within the limits of human experience and reason
*that which never had a beginning does not exist*. In vain we attempt
to conceive otherwise. The blessed fact we would point out is that God
Himself has never burdened our minds with such a statement.
"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How *unsearchable* are His judgments, and His ways *past finding out*.
For who hath known the mind of the Lord (knowledge)? or who hath been
His counsellor (wisdom)? or who hath first given to Him, and it shall
be recompensed unto him again (riches)?"
Think of the errors which have clustered around the wrong translation
of aion. Instead of honestly rendering the word "age," the translators
assumed that it must refer to eternity, and so wherever possible they
rendered it by words which indicate eternity, and that which is
everlasting. Has not the book of Ecclesiastes been written in order
that we may be led to see the utter impossibility of pushing beyond
that which it has pleased God to reveal to us? "He hath set the world
(olam, the age) in their heart, so that no man can find out the work
that God maketh *from the beginning to the end*" (Eccles. iii. 11).
When the reader opens the sacred volume he soon becomes aware that much
must have taken place which is unrecorded. He can discover by what is
written in Isa. xlv. 18 that the earth was not created "without form
and void," but that it *became* so.
Yet one more consideration. In Dan. x. 21 and xi. 2 there is a
statement which is worthy of careful study.
"And I will shew thee that which is noted in the Scripture of truth."
"And now will I shew thee the truth."
The angel proceeds to give a most marvellously detailed account, first
of the events which were about to take place within a comparatively
short time of this announcement, and then of the yet future events of
the time of the end, or as he says in Dan. x. 14, "Now I am come to
make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days."
The point to which we would direct the reader's attention is that what
the angel came to tell Daniel was already "noted (writing, v. 24, 25;
sign, vi. 8, 9) in the Scripture of truth." What Scripture? The
events foretold in Dan. xi. are not found written in any of the
Scriptures which had been given up to the time of Daniel. If this be
so, the expression suggests the idea that there may be Scriptures of
truth to which the angels have access, and that the Scriptures which we
possess contain selections, given by God at different intervals, from
that heavenly scroll which contains possibly ever so much more than we
can as yet grasp. The angels do not know everything. Principalities
and powers are learning now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of
God.
We certainly do not possess a complete account of all God's purposes.
Dan. xi. shews us that He knew fully, and had recorded in the
Scriptures to which the angel had access the doings of the kings of
Persia and of Greece. We are sure that His knowledge was not limited
in the least, and that He knew the complete course of the history of
Greece and Persia, although the Scriptures we have received do not
treat of their histories beyond the scope of the particular purpose for
which they have been written. Our Bible centres around Israel and
Jerusalem. Whenever a nation came into touch with Israel, they came
within the scope of revelation.
It is not written of any other company until the mystery is revealed in the vessel and apostle Paul by the HS.
Let us not attempt to force back the roll beyond the appointed limits.
Let us be content to say of some things that we do not know, because
God has not told us. We shall be more pleasing to Him by so doing,
than if we take the responsibility upon ourselves of completing the
revelation which He has purposely left unfinished.
Let us keep close to what is written. Let us be content with what God
*has* said, and if some lines of truth *appear* to conflict, let us not
attempt to reconcile them, for the very attempt savours of unbelief,
but let us be assured that when we see the complete purpose unfolded,
all will be perfect and harmonious, and transcend the highest flight of
our present imaginations.
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epouraniois
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My dialup died on me, I had to re edit that last post, please re read it. Sorry for the inconveniance
yes, there are very very many of us. we travel the web, seeking to show where God has made differences. There are usually not two of us on one site. We are here endeavoring Eph 4. 3 to guard the unity of the Spirit which is in the heavenly places Gen 3. 24. We are not here to create unity. Unity already has been made. We of the church of the one body are guarding that unity till all come to the unity of the faith as God uses us to make known something of His manifold widsom to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. Eph 3. 9-10.
The appointed time for Israel to realize her kingdom was indeed an at hand kingdom, as it is written.
quote:
Doesn't the LORD YHWH Himself also come down in New Jerusalem? And if so, who then will still be with the church in heaven?
That fails to include the overall plan.
Rom 8:21
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
That word creature is the word creation. Now look at the farthest reaches of future ages the Bible speaks >>> What does it say?
1Co 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
For he must reign, till...then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
In my estimation, God is Spirit, "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen." 1Ti 1:17
Now, if at the closing of the age times, and all is reverted back to the goal achieved, The great God and our Savior Jesus Christ will return to His invisible sphere, and the church will be with Him there. Literally, it appears:'
Eph 4:15 ...
grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
It appears that this church will be an habitation for God to dwell in, as it is His body. His temperal manifestation is temporary. His habitation in the church, called the saints in the light appears to be such a close relationship to Him, that it cannot be compared to marriage, which is two becoming as one. But this relationship is so close that it is reckoned to be that of head and body.
Think about it, if Israel had received her kingdom, there would have been no need for any further flesh bodies, as all would have been resurrected long long ago.
We are His workmanship. That is not said of Israel. In fact, one thing that might help you alot, is to make a list of all the things that are the same, comparing the church of the prison ministry, which is the dispensation of the mystery where this church is revealed. Compare all the similarities to the churches in all previous epistles.
What you will find, is that there aren't many at all. You will probably be able to count all the similarities on your fingers because they are different.
If we are the church graphed into Israel, then why don't we stand outside the synagogues the way gentiles had to do when they were partakers of Israel's spiritual things? And why do we think we are going to heaven? Israel is never told she is going to heaven.
Better, why does the church of today say they are going to heaven, then immediately take Israel's things and place themselves back on the earth.
It doesn't even make any since!
What is so difficult to believe about God having a family on earth and in heaven? It is written, isnt it best to believe it?
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Carmela
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Hmmm lets see. As I read Mk. 1:1-1:8, I see that John the Baptist is teaching to repent because He is coming. He means the Messiah that was prophesied.
Then, I go to 1:9-1:13 and I see that Jesus is no longer coming, He is here. So, that connects with what John was saying.
So, the time is now and the prophesy is now fulfilled. The word kairos was used because they are not talking about the present time, they are talking about the appointed time which was the time of Jesus return which as I said, was prophesied in advance.
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Posts: 646 | From: Central New York | Registered: Jun 2005
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BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois, in 25 years being a Christian, I have never heard anything like what you are proposing. Do you know anyone else who believes those things re Israel and the church that you propose?
And what was your answer to my question, "what's the point of the church being in heaven if Jesus the Prince will be on earth in His holy oblation"?
Doesn't the LORD YHWH Himself also come down in New Jerusalem? And if so, who then will still be with the church in heaven?
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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It sounds as if I am being asked an opinion. My opinion then, is that we are instructed in this aspect in Eph, Col, Phil, and 2nd Tim.
Additionally, I can say, that the heavenly places far exceed the earth in glory.
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
That is where the church is said to be:
with Him
G4862
σύν
sun
soon
A primary preposition denoting union; with or together (but much closer than G3326 or G3844), that is, by association, companionship, process, resemblance, possession, instrumentality, addition, etc.: - beside, with. In compounds it has similar applications, including completeness.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with [sun] Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with [sun] him in glory.
This glory is called the saint in light. It is called the holiest of all.
Compare how they are with Him:
Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was hungry, and they that were with him;
with:
meta
met-ah'
A primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly denoting accompaniment; “amid” (local or causal);
The church is with Him to make complete, while Israel is with Him as an accompaniment. Near.
We read of Israel that she indeed has spiritual gifts to come, but the church has every spiritual gift God has to give. Which is better? We read of Israel, of her riches, but of the church we read of exceeding riches. Which is better?
If God has a family in the heaven and in the earth, then we have in God, one who satifies. Everyone shall be satisfied, no matter where God sees fit to place them. It matters not to me, all I desire is to know Him.
I don't deserve to even be on the earth. There is nothing I can do to deserve it. Am I to say, well Lord, that sounds really good, having every gift you have to give far above all in the heavenly places, but I would rather covet some of your other childrens things? How do you think that will go over with a Holy God?
Like I said, I just want to receive God's understanding. He said, the first shall be last and the last shall be first. He said He hath chosen us in Him from before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
It is just possible, that when Satan drew a third of God's children away, this particular body, called the church which is His body, are the ones who didnot follow after Satan, for it is written that He knew us before we were born. He hated Essau before he was born.
This is the redemptive plan of the age times. Who fell? I read the angels fell. I read He maketh His angels spirits. I read the angels that sinned are the angels who left their own habitation. They didn't come by the water and blood of a woman. Christ did. The place where the angels entered is called the breach of the waters.
Isa 57:20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
If you look up every place where it says rivers, waters, mountains and trees, something comes to light, something about Jacob's Ladder, angels travelling up and down...
sa 104:1
Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honor and majesty.
Psa 104:2
Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
Psa 104:3
Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
Psa 104:4
Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire
Ecc 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
There is more imagery in the depths of every verse which is impossible to fully plumb.
I [am] prayer. Ps 109. 4
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BORN AGAIN
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I had always interpreted refs like "seated in heavenly places" and the like as simply meaning that in Christ, the LORD looks at us bornagain Christians as "positionally already owning all that".
So are you saying that when Israel inherits the earth, the Prince will be in His holy oblation of land by Jerusalem, while the church is in heaven?
What good would it do for the church to be in heaven while all the "good stuff" is happening here on earth?
I don't get it?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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These are not my interpretations, this is plainly stated, I am merely quoting the differences and comparing. Although Israel had many churches, nevertheless, she looks for a kingdom which is heavenly coming to the earth.
Israel is to inherit the earth. It's all over the Bible. Israel is the bride. Israel's inheritance is in the land. At no time do we see Israel as said to be seated in the heavenly places, rather she looks for an heavenly kingdom on the earth:
Mat 6:10
...in earth, as it is in heaven.
There's is an earthly kingdom.
Israel's blessing are in stock and in store, in the land, in rain in due season.
Rev 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
We know that this city is the same as the overcomers listed in Hebrews 11 concerns. It is heavenly in its charactor, earthly in its position. It comes down from heaven. It is adorned as a bride. In that day, the land is called Beulla, married.
Israel is the bride in both the OT and NT.
The chruch which is His body has is no time spoken of as being in or on the earth:
Col 3:2
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
The blessing of the church is every blessing which is spiritual that God has to give, and this is positionally in the heavenly places:
Eph 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ
Eph 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus
Unless the heaven means the earth and the earth means the earth, then these are two different spheres of blessings.
Where are these heavenly places? We needn't guess:
Eph 4:10
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.
They are far above all, yes?
Eph 1:20
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23
Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.
This church is called to be the full grown husband:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man anēr, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ
perfect = full grown
man = anēr = husband
This church is never likened unto a bride.
This word anēr, husband, is used 5 times in the following chapter and translated husband in every case. This word is translated husband in the Holy Spirits first usage of it:
Mat 1:16
And Jacob begat Joseph the husband anēr of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Mat 1:19
Then Joseph her husband anēr, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
Eph 5:23
For the husband anēr is the head of the wife,
*AND HERE IS THE CONTRAST*
even as
Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
ph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
The husband and wife are one in relationship, EVEN AS Christ is Head of the church, His body. The church of the one body.
I am fully aware of the diverse traditions of man. I am only interested in what God has actually stated. At no time is the church likened unto a bride. This all fades away once we realize that we need to make some room for the rest of God's mighty outworking, comparing the things that differ, approving that which is more excellent, holding fast to that which is good.
It is not good to think the church, called to be a full grown husband, who's hope is in superheavenlies is also Israel, called to be a bride and the wife of their youth, who's hope is earthly.
They are just not telling us the same thing the Bible actually says. Search and see. God loves it when we are found so doing:
These were more noble...in that
they received the word
with all readiness of mind,
and searched the Scriptures
daily,
whether those things were so.
Act 17:11
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epouraniois
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The explanation contains a noticed reference to Zachariah the son of Jehoiada the priest because he was slain in the court of the temple in 2Ch 24:20, as this is true, and yet, another shadow and type.
Although the OT Zachariah was the last prophet to be slain between teh alar and the temple, there was yet another after that in the OT, and here Christ is still dealing with murdering, infiltrated, Jews by register and not Jews by blood, for the most part that is, coming upon THIS generation. But hear me out.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
This muderous theme is not prayed towards forgiveness until the Lord makes the prayer, Father forgive them for they know not what they do, and must include JtB:
Mat 14:10 And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison.
Additionally to the verse which follows, Mat 23:36, ...All these things shall come upon this generation.
But without getting too deep into a study here, we have the Figure of Speech being employeed. Now, I know, many times people who say Figure of Speech are doing so out of a cop out. This will never be the case with me.
Figures of Speech are rather scientific, having definate rules. That is to say, there are grammatical rules for breaking the rules of grammar. Doing so is to cause a call of attention, emphassis, and to make more interesting certain aspects of a subject by using a break from the normal grammatical structure.
Thus, all Figures of Speech have names. Furthermore, Figures of Speech always mean more than the words employeed, and never less. Therefore, if anyone gives any of you the old Figure of Speech thing, ask them the name of the Figure and see if they are educated enough to be answering the question, or just giving personal opinion. That's my advice.
For there is no such thing as righteous blood outside of Christs'.
The Figure of Speech:
Hys'-ter-e-sis; or, Subsequent Narration
(Genesis 31:7, 8. Psalm 105:8). When later record gives supplemental or new particulars, not inserted in the historical record.
After this Figure, we are given another one;
'he slew' phoneuo,
The Figure
Pro-lep's-is, (Occupatio); or, Anticipation.
Answering an argument by anticipating it before it is used.
1. Open. When the anticipated objection is both answered and stated (Matthew 3:9).
2. Closed. When the anticipated objection is either not plainly stated or not answered (Romans 10:18)
But this Figure is a bit more complicated still, as it is the Figure Pro-lep's-is towards the Figure Am'-pli-a'-tio:
Am'-pli-a'-tio; or, Adjournment
(Genesis 2:23. 1Samuel 30:5). A retaining of an old name after the reason for it has passed away.
IOW's, this speaks of future tense, while holding true the grammar plural to the subject 'all' the righteous blood..., speaking of future things as present.
See, Josephus, Wars, iv.5. 4.
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BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois, I'm sorry that I seem to have trouble following how you write things.
Forgive me for asking once again. It seems to me that you are saying that there are two destinies, one for Israel/Judah and one for the church.
If that is what you are saying, where is each going?
Is the church only going to heaven, or is the church also going to be on earth somewhere?
And the house of Israel/Judah will be doing what?
1. the church is going, where?
2. Israel/Judah is going, where?
3. And where will Jesus then be?
thanks, BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois writes quote:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
This was John the Baptist father. {bold by BA}
How do you know this bolded part, please?
Luke 1:5
There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
thanks, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zechariah son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
This was John the Baptist father.
Christ is speaking to the same ones John the Baptist was speaking to as well:
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Not all the pharasees and scribes, but definately there were specific ones to whom Christ spake so railing of, referring back to Genesis3. 15.
It is my search for truth which has led me to realize that in God's interpretation, it seems to me, that only the nations who came into contact with Israel is ever mentioned. We don't hear of the great dynasties of China, nor the established of India, or anyone esle, not unless they came into contact with Israel. The Bible is, in general terms, the story of Israel's failure to realize the spiritual war, being deceived at every turn, save for a remnant.
After all things were fulfilled concerning Christ, Ps22, Is53 in particular, Israel could actualize the truth in her heart and have the honest aftermind about all the nation had gone through, all the nation had hope for, but only a few actually received the call. During that time, the Lord said His sheep hear. Does this tell us just how many were not His sheep? NONE were of the house of Levi, writes Ezra. Ye are of your father the devil, declares the Christ, as Cain who was of that wicked one writes John in his epistles.
Wicked men crept in awares reads Galatians. Satan's whole program is to counterfit Christ, to take His throne, to be seen as the one to whom the throne belongs. Satan had done everything in his authority and power, using every principality, thrones and dominions to overthrow the Christ child, and after the work on the tree, the risen Christ, in His longsuffering, living up to His prayer, Forgive them Father they know not what they do, proceeds to pour out the HS upon all that will believe. In that period, all they had to do was believe. Christ was prepared, and did show that He was prepared to do the rest of the work, to carry them to the finish with Him through the work of the Holy Spirit, but they would not. He even used some gentiles for 18 years in His longsuffering for to provoke her with, but Satan won that battle.
And when it looked at it's bleakest, as she is totally infiltrated by that wicked, something that Satan didnot know about was made known.
And in this new revelation, for all to read, Christ had promised, from before the foundation of the world, another company, a company that for the first time in all of Scripture, we find, has an heavenly inheritance, an inheritance by adoption far above all in the very glory of the holiest of all, being shown a much much closer relationship, absolutely connected to the head, which church is His body. The one body.
I figure that whoever has had much listening to men on their stage, men who would never tell anyone that the Bible says to go not into the way of the house of God in the latter days, that all of those indoctrinated by man's formulae, man's structuring of this Holy Inspired Book, that all of these have so very much to unlearn. Most will not do it, and this is where I want, and have wanted to say that where most argue, blame, attack, it is good to see that you yourself are searching to see if a thing is so. It is the only way He can reveal to us, for it is written:
Mat 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Let me know if I have failed to respond to the question you have asked, and I shall try in the spirit of Eph4. 3.
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BORN AGAIN
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okay, I got that, an appointed time. Was it the time of the Israel-Judah filling up the sins of their forefathers to the brim and that "time was fulfilled"? That's the time {kairos, season} that I currently think it refers to?
Matthew 23:32
Fill you up then the measure of your fathers.
It was the end of a "kairos" or "spiritual season". But a new "kairos" was about to start, the "kairos" of the bornagain church and also the "kairos" of the remnant of the house of Judah joining the house of Israel as the dispersed among the nations.
Those are the two "kairos" wich are currently operating. Once Jesus comes, will He merge the two into one, epouraniois, or are you saying that one will go to heaven and one will rule on earth?
if you don't mind repeating what you have probably already said...have you said that the church will go to heaven and the house of Israel/Judah will go to rule the earth with Jesus from Jerusalem, or what are you saying one more time, please?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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epouraniois
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Like the time of the flood, like the time of His death, burial and resurrection, there is in the Greek, other items for understanding to be found in the grammar.
For example, in Rev9 we read in v.15:
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
In the English we might be led to believe this is speaking of a length of time, but that would take one afar off from the mark, as it speaks of a specific moment in time, for neither the article nor the preposition are repeated before day and month and year. The meaning is that the angels are prepared unto the hour appointed by God, and that this hour shall fall in its appointed day and month and year.
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BORN AGAIN
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dear brothers and sisters, what time is this?
Mark 1
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel.
In the Greek, the word "time" is the word "kairos", which means "appointed time" or "season".
This is in contrast to "kronos" which is "time like "chronos", as "chronograph or "watch" or "timepiece":
Revelation 10:6
And sware by him who live forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are therein, and the earth and the things that are therein, and the sea and the things that are therein, that there should be time {Greek, kronos} no longer.
so I ask you brothers and sisters, what did Yahshua-Jesus have in mind when He said:
Mark 1
15 And saying, The time {Greek, kairos, not kronos} is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel.
In above word "time" is the Greek word "kairos", which means "appointed time" or "season".
What was Yahshua-Jesus referring to by "the time {kairos} is fulfilled"?
May the LORD God of Israel bless all who participate on this CBBS, I am BORN AGAIN by the
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