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Topic: Need help w/Predestination
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Godbehere
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist, just an old feller that loves my Lord Jesus and believes that whosoever will come to Christ will be justified through His precious redemption.
Drew, I can't argue with that! (Not the old feller part, but the rest) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
epouraniois and HFHS: thanks for your posts; lots of good material there for my study.
Once I've absorbed these, I'll probably be back with more questions...thanks.
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Carl
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Posts: 50 | From: FL | Registered: Dec 2004
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AMH
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Then cometh Adam’s children-
Choose you this day, (yesterday is gone, tomorrow may be to late) whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
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epouraniois
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And the circumcision was a picture word and physical type so the children could learn and remember that the goal is to put off the flesh, wherein Christ puts on the new man;
Rom 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Col 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses
Col 3:1
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
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AMH
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And after Adam fell-
God did sacrifice, placed coverings on the man and the woman signifying the way back to Him was open to all mankind, (predestination).
This we must proclaim to all generations, (evangelization).
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epouraniois
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Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Perhaps this will help understand what God means by judgement:
First a quicky on the word damnation, it is just the word judgment, look at how it applies to Christ:
Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
NOw if we change the word as did the translators, this would read, And Jesus said, For damnation I am come into this world...
WE must be very careful with quite a few words, for they did harm translating some of them into English, and some they rotate out just to be non repetitive, like grace and hope, &c, &c.
The Death of the High Priest:
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
The idea here is that once a year, the high priest would have to go into the holy of holies to offer sacrifice, so they must make many sacrifices, but Christ only had to make one sacrifice. We want to try to understand what might have gone on in the mind of a Hebrew [Jew] while Paul was relating this message to them. Lets see if we can draw it out using scripture.
The subject is the cities of refuge, and if one had accidentally killed another, then he could go live in a city of refuge safely. The word “and” is in italics, so you can leave it out when you read it.
Jos 20:6 And he shall dwell in that city, until he stand before the congregation for judgment, and until the death of the high priest that shall be in those days: then shall the slayer return, and come unto his own city, and unto his own house, unto the city from whence he fled.
So, this man, who meant no malice, and had no forethought in the death of another could go into this city, and remain, but could not go out until the death of the high priest. But after that, the judgment, and he was set free.
Now, that’s what Paul is trying to tell the people in the book of Hebrews. That Christ is the high priest, and He makes one sacrifice, and not many sacrifices. And after the death of the high priest, Christ’s death, there is a judgment and they are set free. He is telling them the high priest is dead. They are all free to go home now. There is a different freedom that is meant here, but there is a parallel with the death and sacrifice of Christ which was all a figure of that which was to come, and the sin wherein they were in that city of refuge. Now these people would be perfectly acquainted with these things, with the condemned man; [remember these were believers too]; and with the cities of refuge, and the habit of the high priest going in once a year into the holiest of all to make his offering. Paul is then arguing with them that Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient and it does indeed set all the transgressors free. As all have sinned, all are set free.
Every message of Paul in the Acts had the first commission in mind, that being to preach the kingdom up until the time where the mystery would be revealed and Israel would be set aside, counted as just one of the other nations.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
This is an Hebraism, it should read the better sacrifice, or the great sacrifice, Christ’s sacrifice. There is a habit in the Hebrew idiom of using a plural in the Greek, when they want to express something to a superlative degree. They didn’t have the superlative degree in their adjectives in English. So the holy of holies is that “holiest of all”. Here, “sacrifices” means the great sacrifice, so we have to know, sometimes, about this Hebrew idiom.
I don’t know if this helps any of you, but it has certainly helped me. I would recommend going back and reading the whole chapter, it’s another good one.
Closely related to this subject is a verse that most people don’t seem to have in their Bible, I don’t know if yours does or not.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Now, this word logizomai, imputing, is really the English word 'reckoned'. Christ not reckoning trespasses, but reckoning them to Himself.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
There it is. The good news. Sin is not imputed. There is no place of torment in the hereafter. Now that is not a dispensational truth, it belongs to all people. Some, many will not be with the overcomers, and for them is a great time of teaching known as the 1,000 years where preists will riegn with Christ, and everyone shall be fed at the Lord's table.
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
It is the prize which can be won, or lost, it is up to each individual to work out that part of our own salvation.
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AMH
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Levi tithed to Melchizedek through Abraham.
When God finished creation He said that everything was good. And when He did that He called us good through Adam.
When Adam fell he took us with him.
God did not do the last.
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Caretaker
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God has chosen, predestined the pathway which all of those who receive Christ Jesus our Lord will walk.
God has chosen, predestined that whosoever will receive Christ will become adopted children of the Living God, His Elect and will be eternally secure in the glorious redemption of Christ Jesus our Lord.
God has chosen, predestined that all of those who reject Christ Jesus our Lord are eternally condemned already.
John 3:
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
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AMH
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Is God good? We know that He is.
Is God just? He must be.
Is God loving? He has to be.
Does God take pity on us? Surely so.
Then there is only one way for predestination to work and the Lord remain all these things, (and more).
That He would predestinate all people for salvation.
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epouraniois
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Predestination, this requires some understanding of both the overall plan of God, as well as specific word play. And is no small study for the complete undertaking to receive the Lord's understanding, however I shall attempt to open this up, and see if more is sought:
"Destiny" is not part of the Greek word and should be discarded from the English mind, if possible. Destiny follows fate, and it is not fate which is in view, it is 'sonship', specifically it is sonship by adoption. We must, therefore, avoid importing any ideas into the doctrine of predestination that derive from the composition of the English word.
With us, the future is hid from our eyes because of our human limitations. But God, as it were, sees all at a glance; He knows the end from the beginning. He has told us the end and the beginning * redemptive movement*.
The Greek word translated "predestinate" is a compound of pro "before" and horizo "to set bounds". In the N.T. horizo is translated "determinate" , "ordain", "limit", "declared". This word gives the English "horizon" which has no element of fate in its meaning, but means simply the "boundary" where sea and sky appear to meet.
Predestination occurs twice in Ephesians, once it is "unto adoption" and once to an "inheritance" (1:5,11). This second occurrence falls into line with the usage of the LXX. Horizo in the LXX is found in the proximity of the words kleros and kleronomia, words that mean "the obtaining of an inheritance by lot".
"This shall be your west border" horion (Num. 34:6). "Jordan shall be their boundary, horizo, on the east: this is the inheritance (kleronomia) of the children of Benjamin" (Joshua 18:20 LXX).
"See, that I have given to you (lit. "cast upon you") these nations that are left to you by lots (klerois) to your tribes . . . and the boundaries (or he shall be bound horizo) shall be at the great sea westward" (Josh. 23:4 LXX).
Most of the references to horizo are found words that mean an inheritance obtained by lot. The Apostle *by HS* has linked "predestination" prohorizo with "obtaining an inheritance" (kleroo), this O.T. usage MUST be recognized. Predestination, or "marking off beforehand" is what we all do when making a will. Here, in the Will of the Father, we are blessed to see that "adoption" and "inheritance" are secured. That a human "will" is a permissible analogy, Galatians 3:15 and 4:1,2 will make dear, and no legatee ever compares "fatalism" with a personal human will. Those who were chosen in Christ before the overthrow of Genesis 1:2, were also "marked off before hand" and as the R.V. reads were "foreordained unto adoption".
The same goal, "adoption", is associated with predestination in Romans eight.
The Structure of Romans 8:1-39,
A 1-4 No condemnation. God sent His own SON (huios)
B 5-15 Led by Spirit of God. SONS now (huios)
C 15-17 Spirit itself bears witness. SONSHIP (huiothesia)
D 17-21 Suffering and glory. Manifestation of SONS (huios)
C 22-28 Spirit Itself intercedes. SONSHIP (huiothesia)
B 29.30 Conformed to the image of His SON then (huios)
A 31-39 Who condemns? He spared not His own SON (huios).
"There is, therefore, now no CONDEMNATION to them which are in Christ Jesus . . . God sending His Own Son . . . CONDEMNED sin in the flesh" (Rom. 8: 1-3).
"He that spared not His own Son . . . who is he that CONDEMNETH? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, Who is even at the right hand of God, Who also maketh intercession for us" (Rom. 8:32-34).
Sonship, with the Son being the first and the last, or goal.
5-15 Led by the Spirit of God. SONS now (huios)
29,30 Conformed to the image of His SON then (huios)
"The Spirit Itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God" (Rom. 8:16).
"The Spirit Itself . . . maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God" (Rom. 8:26,27).
17-21 Suffering and Glory. Manifestation of SONS (huios).
Turning to the section that speaks of predestination we read:
"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified" (Rom. 8:29,30).
The analysis of the passage is simple, and is as follows:
A PREDESTINATION-Conformity. Steps leading to
B PURPOSE-Christ. Firstborn among many brethren
A PREDESTINATION-Glory. Steps leading to.
Itis now time to look at the surrounding words:
Foreknowledge, to foreknow, occurs five times in the N.T., and the noun, prognosis, twice, making seven references in all. The passages:
* "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23).
* "My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; which knew me from the beginning" (Acts 26:4,5).
* "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate" (Rom. 8:29).
* "God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew" (Rom. 11:2).
* "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" (1 Pet. 1:2).
* "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" (1 Pet. 1:20).
* "Ye, therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before" (2 Pet. 3:17).
A Reference to Christ and His sacrifice (Acts 2:23)
Reference to man and his previous knowledge of facts (Acts 26:4,5)
Reference to the elect people of God (Rom. 8:29; 11:2, 1 Petr. 1:2)
Reference to Christ and His sacrifice (1 Petr. 1:20)
Reference to man and his foreknowledge as a result of Scriptual testimony (2 Petr. 3:17)
The one great demand upon all who hear the gospel is that they believe the testimony of God concerning His Son. Whoever so believes passes into ail the blessings purchased by the blood of Christ. refusal to believe would be as much a part of God's predeterminate decrees as is election to glory, and it would not be possible to make God a liar by so refusing His testimony. Whoever does not believe makes God a liar (1 John 5:10).
Foreknowledge is different and seperate from predestination, example: "whom He did foreknow He also did predestinate". If we alter the word "foreknow" to any word bearing the sense of predetermining or predestining, the sentence ceases to retain it's meaning, - "whom He did foreordain He also did predestinate".
"Predestinate", as ,observed up top is the translation of the Greek prohorizo. The word horos, from which horizo is formed, does not occur in the N.T., but it has the well-established meaning of boundary or limit, as in the word horizon. This word, in turn, is from horao, to see, boundaries generally being marked to make them visible and conspicuous.
Three related words which should be considered together:
1. Purpose (prothesis). Something set or placed before the mind, a proposition.
2. Foreknowledge (proginosko). To know beforehand, and
3. Predestinate (proorizo). To mark off beforehand.
The whole testimony of the Scriptures is to the effect that God has a purpose before Him, according to which He works and, in accord with that purpose of peopling heaven and earth with the redeemed, He foreknew every one who would respond to the call of grace, and accordingly marked them off beforehand for the various spheres of glory that His purpose demanded. We are talking about overcomers here, those who continue onto the end, that is to say, perfection.
Perfect, be ye perfect even as Father in heaven is perfect. How are you going to do that? Well, this word perfect doesn't mean to get better and better, God cannot be actively becoming perfect, so what does it mean then?
Perfect is a 'tel' word, like the English telescope, television, telegrahm, each have one common view, to reach or attain to something afar off. That is the word perfect, to reach maturity, contrast with babihood where Hebrews 5 and 6 come together, it is a continuance, not 2 seperate chapters.
Christ continued onto the end, giving us the word perfect. Perfection is of the overcomers. The overcomers are aware of their sonship, their adoption. A prize is in view. A prize which can be won or lost.
To evangelize for the purpose of pointing God's children in the right direction, that they might attain unto the prize is what the apostles ministy was all about.
So should ours be.
"It became Him, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren. . . . Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself1ikewise took part of the same" (Heb. 2:10-14).
Bringing this back around to Romans 8:29, it is conformity to the image of His Son, to be both a present experience, and a future hope; one associated with the "renewing of our mind" now (Rom. 12:2), the other, associated with the "redemption of our body," then (Rom. 8:23). In Romans eight, sonship is here and now essentially associated with resurrection, the "spirit" of sonship being expressed in Christ-likeness, while literal sonship itself ("adoption" , 8 :23) will be expressed in complete likeness to the glorified Lord, in body as well as in spirit.
A further understanding of judement and damnation would best be a longside study, as judement is always a good thing, in fact, we are now in the day of God's judgment, believe it or not, but it's right there in the Greek, and in the Day of the Lord, it is us who judge God, singing worthy worthy worthy...His judgement is just, for He is the just and the justifier.
1Co 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
hēmera = judgment in v3, declaring this to be man's day, while the Lord's Day follows man's hēmera, wherein all overcomers lay their crowns at the Lord's feet. It is sort of like when your child comes home with a trophy. Well, it is so pleasing to the parents, that it is like they got a trophy too. That is the way the Greek sort of lays it out when the people lay their crowns at the Lord's feet. Those who attain unto the prize is just like the Lord receiving a prize, in fact, He does receive with all joy and longsuffering.
"that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren".
Hebrews two vividly declares this truth:
"It became Him, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren. . . . Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself1ikewise took part of the same" (Heb. 2:10-14).
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AMH
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helpforhomeschoolers,
You give some very good scripture. And you show a lot of restraint. Thanks.
AMH
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
If I understand the doctrine of predestination correctly, the ultimate decision for salvation rests with God. If this is the case, what is the purpose of evangelistic efforts?
any thoughts appreciated...
Salvation comes by the word of the Gospel...
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
The Bible tells us that we are foreknown of God from before he knits us together in the womb, and thus "who" we are is known to him. This was true of Jeramiah and of each of God's children..
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
We are predestined to be conformed to the image of HIS son, according to forknowledge of who we are (HIS Sheep - HIS planted wheat).
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
THis is known to God... it is not known to man, thus the command to go yea and preach the Gospel in all the world to EVERY Creature... that those who are predestined will hear the call and come.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
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AMH
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If God pre-chose those who would be saved and if God pre-chose those who would be lost then it can only stand to reason that evangelism is mere window dressing.
Calvinism and Arminianism are self contained units of thought that are diametrically opposed to one another and cannot be broken down and then mixed together. To suppose that a person can be “half and half” is pure fantasy. (Once save always saved is an attempt to shed the glaring problems inherent in John Calvin’s philosophy. At this it fails miserably as the problems only loom larger.)
Part of Calvin’s problem was his anti-Catholic rhetoric, that part being not religious in its purest sense but political. Calvin’s earthly kingdom got in the way of religious tolerance.
Instead of evangelize Calvin’s motto was terrorize.
AMH
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Godbehere
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Drew and Bandit,
Thanks for the responses…I was really asking the question as part of my learning about predestination and election. I have always thought that evangelism was one of the most, if not the most, important duties of the Christian (the great commission), but if one understands predestination and election a certain way, it would seem to make preaching the gospel a waste of time, and I certainly don’t think that’s the case. So, as you said, Bandit, I guess I need to clarify my understanding of these doctrines.
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Carl
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
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Bandit
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quote:
Originally posted by Godbehere:
If I understand the doctrine of predestination correctly, the ultimate decision for salvation rests with God. If this is the case, what is the purpose of evangelistic efforts?
any thoughts appreciated...
Hello Carl,
Drew gave a rather long-winded reply detailing the traditional theological lines. If you are somewhat confused by that response, then try this one. (Not that Drew is wrong, but it may be that much of the traditional arguments are beside the point.)
The most obvious conclusion is that unless God chooses to save, then none can be saved. (For it is God who does the “saving”.) If we then rightly assume that God does choose to save, then the next pair of questions is whom does He save, and how does He save them?
We can envision a few different mechanism for God’s choice. First, He may choose to save certain individuals unilaterally (the choice is all His, and the individuals have no choice), or He may choose to save in a manner in which those He saves have a willful role to play. And He may not even choose to save on an “individual” basis at all: He may announce His intent to save a certain group (like “Israel” or “the church”). This is what is called a corporate view of election.
But now to your question about “evangelistic efforts” and how they are effected by the “doctrine of predestination.” How one answers your question would depend upon how one understands “predestination.” And how one understand “predestination” would depend directly upon how one understands “election.”
Many feel that “evangelism” has no real purpose if God saves individual men on an individual, unilateral basis. But if God chooses to save those who respond to His offer of salvation (however that may work), then “evangelism” may definitely have a purpose.
Perhaps your understanding of the “doctrine of predestination” should be adjusted. Perhaps it doesn’t have to mean what you appear to think it must (that man has no role to play in his own salvation, and that “evangelism” serves no real function).
Bandit
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Caretaker
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Armininism
The rise of the word was this: JAMES HARMENS, in Latin, Jacobes Arminius, was
first one of the Ministers of Amsterdam, and afterwards Professor of Divinity at Leyden.
He was educated at Geneva; but in the year 1591 began to doubt of the principles which
he had till then received. And being more and more convinced that they were wrong,
when he was vested with the Professorship, he publicly taught what he believed the
truth, till, in the year 1609, he died in peace. But a few years after his death, some
zealous men with the Prince of Orange at their head, furiously assaulted all that held
what were called his opinions; and having procured them to be solemnly condemned, in
the famous Synod of Dort, (not so numerous or learned, but full as impartial, as the
Council or Synod of Trent,) some were put to death, some banished, some imprisoned for
life, all turned out of their employments, and made incapable of holding any office, either
in Church or State.
The errors charged upon these (usually termed Arminians) by their opponents, are
five: (1.) That they deny original sin; (2.) That they deny justification by faith; (3.) That
they deny absolute predestination; (4.) That they deny the grace of God to be
irresistible; and, (5.) That they affirm, a believer may fall from grace.
With regard to the two first of these charges, they plead, Not Guilty. They are entirely
false. No man that ever lived, not John Calvin himself, ever asserted either original sin,
or justification by faith, in more strong, more clear and express terms, than Arminius has
done. These two points, therefore, are to be set out of the question: In these both parties
agree.
The Calvinists hold, (1.) God has absolutely
decreed, from all eternity, to save such and such persons, and no others; and that Christ
died for these, and none else. The Arminians hold, God has decreed, from all eternity,
touching all that have the written word, "He that believeth shall be saved: He that
believeth not, shall be condemned:" And in order to this, "Christ died for all, all that were
dead in trespasses and sins;" that is, for every child of Adam, since "in Adam all died."
The Calvinists hold, Secondly, that the saving grace of God is absolutely irresistible;
that no man is any more able to resist it, than to resist the stroke of lightning. The
Arminians hold, that although there may be some moments wherein the grace of God
acts irresistibly, yet, in general, any man may resist, and that to his eternal ruin, the
grace whereby it was the will of God he should have been eternally saved.
The Calvinists hold, Thirdly, that a true believer in Christ cannot possibly fall from
grace. The Arminians hold, that a true believer may "make shipwreck of faith and a good
conscience;" that he may fall, not only foully, but finally, so as to perish for ever.
Remonstrates of Arminian Position
1.God has decreed to save through Jesus Christ those of the fallen and sinful race who through the grace of the Holy Spirit believe in him, but leaves in sin the incorrigible and unbelieving. (In other words predestination is said to be conditioned by God's foreknowledge of who would respond to the gospel)
2.Christ died for all men (not just for the elect), but no one except the believer has remission of sin.
3.Man can neither of himself nor of his free will do anything truly good until he is born again of God, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit. (Though accused of such, Arminius and his followers were not Pelagians.)
4.All good deeds or movements in the regenerate must be ascribed to the grace of God but his grace is not irresistible.
5.Those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith have power given them through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit to persevere in the faith. But it is possible for a believer to fall from grace.
Five theological points were formulated to answer the Remonstrants in a document known as the Canon of Dort, which declared:
that fallen man was totally unable to save himself (Total Depravity)
that God's electing purpose was not conditioned by anything in man (Unconditional Election)
that Christ's atoning death was sufficient to save all men, but efficient only for the elect (Limited Atonement)
that the gift of faith, sovereignly given by God's Holy Spirit, cannot be resisted by the elect (Irresistible Grace)
that those who are regenerated and justified will persevere in the faith (Perseverance of the saints)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++
I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist, just an old feller that loves my Lord Jesus and believes that whosoever will come to Christ will be justified through His precious redemption.
God is omniscience, in that He knows everything from the very beginning to the very end, and even down to having the very hairs of our head numbered. He knows every fibre of our being, and every thought and perception that we will ever have.
God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, and that He would sacrifice Himself for our eternal redemption, before ever He manipulated a single molecule in His creation.
Did God make Adam and Eve eat of the fruit, or did they choose to do so?
Did God make each Israelite gaze upon the brass serpent to be healed, or did they choose to look upon image for their healing?
God has chosen, predestined the pathway which all of those who receive Christ Jesus our Lord will walk.
God has chosen, predestined that whosoever will receive Christ will become adopted children of the Living God, His Elect and will be eternally secure in the glorious redemption of Christ Jesus our Lord.
God has chosen, predestined that all of those who reject Christ Jesus our Lord are eternally condemned already.
John 3:
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Rev. 3:
20: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21: To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Godbehere
Advanced Member
Member # 4187
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posted
If I understand the doctrine of predestination correctly, the ultimate decision for salvation rests with God. If this is the case, what is the purpose of evangelistic efforts?
any thoughts appreciated...
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Carl
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Posts: 50 | From: FL | Registered: Dec 2004
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