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Topic: I would like to ask for some help understanding.
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HisGrace
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I believe our souls go straight to heaven upon death.
During the Rapture our earthly bodies become glorified and meet Jesus in the sky to unite with our souls in heaven, so that we can be prepared as the Bride to come back to earth with Jesus for His Second Coming.
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Adv.Christian
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![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) Thank you everybody, this is a significant help to me and I truly do appreciate it. Now I have another question along the same line; given the belief of rapture, where is the believer at death? As always my love to all and May God bless this forum and its members. ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
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A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
Posts: 299 | From: Raleigh/North Carolina | Registered: Jun 2004
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
this is speaking of the Jews. When they see the
abomination of desolation, they will realize that the anti-Christ is not the Messaih but the devil. Then they will flee to a place God has prepared for them.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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epouraniois
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Truth through Jesus Christ our LORD be unto you.
Please permit a reading of how the Lord uses the word in question for the 'falling away',
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to ''forsake'' Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
These are the only two occurances of the word as it stands. I shall be using the Biblical principal set forth as follows:
The Biblical Q & A regarding study habits the Lord sets forth for our learning:
Isa 28:9
1. Whom shall he teach knowledge? and
2. whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
The Biblical answer:
them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
And how do they who are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast study the Word of God?
Isa 28:10
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.
I am comfortable with the English tranlation of apostasia being depart, or departure, as it is sometimes argued.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
We probably agree that the subject is given as the day of the Lord, coupled with the warning about being deceived. Lets look at how the word is rendered by the Holy Spirit in Acts:
Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to ''forsake'' Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
The subject seems to be that Paul is falling away from the OT doctrine. In Thess2, 2. 3, we have a like subject, that of falling away being contrasted with the immediate forethought of being deceived.
I see nowhere that the earth or the heaven is in view. Only deception about the day of the Lord and His parousia.
Be not deceived
that day shall not come
except there come a departure first
and
that man of sin be revealed
the son of perdition
Two things are immediately contrasted with the day of the Lord and the warning pertaining to being deceived.
departure
and
Satan arriving defacto
These two things, says the apostle must come before the Lord returns.
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
I don't know why we people have a tendency to get all crazy when reading the Bible, the words are God-Breathed. They interpret themselves. Surely if the Lord had meant for us to learn He is coming for a 2nd, a 3rd or more advents, He speaks clearly through His sent ones, the stewards of His Holy Word.
If some were to leave the planet, why does He expressly pray 'not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil'.
then give further instructions to take on the whole armor of God *the Bible = Him* that we may be able to stand in that evil day *of Satan showing Himself to be God*.
There are so very very many questions, and so far, not one rapture person has given a Biblical answer for any of them. Not without taking the intirety of the context away from God's Holy Word, not to my knowledge so far.
Really though, it wouldn't matter if there were a thousand trumpets, Paul says it is at the last trumpet. Last in the Greek means the furthest one out from the preceeding ones.
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
Psa 118:9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.
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epouraniois
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Revelation be unto you all only through the LORD Jesus Christ.
Thank you for the effort. I have some questions and comments.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Clearly Christ The Lord Jesus believes the elect will be here after Satan arrives showing himself to be God, as per 2 Thes 2.
4. Yes, they were to comfort one another that their loved ones would rise first. That was the comfort. Read the subject and the object and follow it through the passages till it stops. You can see it.
6. His coming was immenent, every apostle preached the soon coming of the Lord, all that was waiting was Israel's national repentance. They failed, their kingdom hope was postponed, now in abayance.
7. the verses please. which church?
8. the dead rise first, then those who are alive and remain. when? the last trump. pretty simple, aye?
9. NOW....What John said to the Pharisees and Saducees when they came to his baptizm makes perfect sense.
"WHO" has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" Mat. 3:7
He knew that they hadn't heard from God so he asked them, "WHO" warned you?
They didn't want to repent from their sins..They wanted to escape from the wrath
to come.
They see the kingdom of God but won't enter in. Since they won't enter in they
can't hear God's voice so they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears.
And when they hear from the teacher what seems to make sense they lay hold
of it and proclaim it to be truth. What you end up with when you do that is doctrines of devils and commandments of men.
They have fear within themselves of God's judgment and wrath not knowing the
Love of God which casts out all fear.
The true Body of Christ welcomes the tribulation. Though it will mean physical
death to many of us and will be a time of trial in our faith we KNOW that our
sufferings will be that which has been through the ages NOT the wrath of God.
We also know that it is a time of His vengence against the ungodly and His judgments are righteous.
The tribulation is the call that the bridegroom is coming. Those that have been
wise will have enough oil to make it through. The tribulation is the night that no
man can work. We are marked with His seal before it starts and will be protected by His power from His wrath. To be killed for His namesake is not His wrath. To be
crucified, beheaded, or stoned for His namesake is NOT his wrath. His wrath is
for the children of disobedience.
Because of envy Jesus was delivered up to be crucified. We will be delivered up
to death for the same reason.
The world doesn't have what we have and they refuse to repent from their sins
to get it so they kill us.
There will be many that will be offended and they will fall away.
We will be refined through persecution and be made spotless and without wrinkle.
We will see Him just as He is because we will be like Him.
There will be those that are so wraped up in their own misery that they won't be
Watching and Praying. They will still be seeking to keep their life and they will lose
it.
I will repeat it one last time for any Pharisees that are readin this.
WE ARE NOT APPOINTED UNTO GOD'S WRATH AND WE WILL NOT SUFFER FROM
IT DURING THE TRIBULATION. We will suffer but NOT by His wrath.
10. the Day of the Lord is not another name for the great trib, if it is, post the verses!!!
11. You didn't read any of this stuff did you, you just copied someone's bogus work. tisk tisk.
12. worthy to flee in that verse does not mean worthy to fly away, so why change the Holy Word of God? Besides, He was specifically speaking to His disciples, and they all were murdered. That is the example in Rev too, beheaded are they who came out of "great tribulation" !!! read it for yourself.
13. Agreed, God delivered them through their tribulation. He was right there with them, they weren't raptured away, they were protected.
Do you not believe God is able to protect His children without flying them away, which He states He is against such teachers who teach that?
14. Joh 14:3 doesn't say any such thing, it says Christ must be killed, so that He can come again to receive them, His people Israel.
21. Please show me where the subject changes from being decieved to leaving the planet.
22. The saints are slain, yep, how is that if they are raptured and not here?
25. Nope, sorry, 2Co 5:2 speaks about the desire for resurrection, saying nothing of what you posted. nevertheless, everyone, believers and non alike: Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at naught thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Paul was not addressing believers, they didn't believe him.
26. Again, it doesn't say that, you just decided for yourself what God means, doesn't God mean what He says, or do we have instruction to fix His Word because of His lack of ability to get it right?
27. Agreed. There are more than one resurrection, but we do read they all happen by 'rank'. This part of the subject should only be approached after one is well grounded in God's understanding. Examp, we are considered dead, and so are those resurrected unto that time of teaching...
28. That is a Hebraism, which is much beyond the present discussion, not relavent to pre trib rapture at all.
29. Yes, the Lord will seperate the goats/tare from the wheat/sheep AT HIS COMING.
31. All judgment comes after His coming silly.
47. There is no proper groundwork provided that the 7th trumpet of Rev is the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15.
Now I've seen some mighy stretching and bending and omissions to get to one point,but that is just wrong wrong wrong.
What trumpet was that again?
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
But if you have some verses which show that Christ comes to the earth 2 more times, please do share them with us, as for me, I have not read them and do desire to be shown where the verses are that speak of any rapture whatsoever. I know quite a few which speak of resurrection, but none which speak of rapture.
ps
the subject in 2 Thes 2 is being deceived. the apostle says 2 things must come before the day of the Lord, one is a great departure from the subject *truth*, and this is in addition to that man of sin, the son of perdition being revealed *Satan*.
this does, of course, present the same theme Christ presents in Mat24:15 quoted above, when the abomination which makes desolate stands in the holy place...that he should even deceive the very elect, if it were possible, so the time is cut short...
Christ:
Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints
Personally, I can't recall even one place where anyone was saved from tribulation. On the other hand, I can recall so very many places where one is saved through tribulation.
While speaking about the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13 Jesus said,
"Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to
the reapers, Gather ye together 'FIRST' the tares, and bind them in bundles to
burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Mat. 13:30
Then in verses 37 through 43 he further explains the harvest. Verses 41-43 says,
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather 'out of his kingdom' all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them
into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 'THEN' shall the
righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to
hear, let him hear. Mat 13:41-43
One of you please explain to me how Jesus has the tares being harvested first and
the 'rapture' has the saints being harvested first.
also please explain to me this verse in Proverbs.
The righteous shall 'NEVER' be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.
Proverbs 10:30
Allow me to point out that when I post verses, it is to glorify God, to show where He has stated His understanding. When I ask questions, I am likewise seeking His understanding. All of man's wisdom is but folly. Neither I nor you or anyone else's interpretation is relevant. The only measure we have for truth is the Cannon of Scripture. If you have any verses which state the Lord comes multiple more times, and that the 7th trumpet is not the last trumpet, please share. Just the verses please. If you know something of grammer, Greek, idiom, and Figures of Speech, feel free to help draw out the meaning of the actual words used, but save yourself from typing any philosphy, I only need the verses, and I need them in the context which God has given them by His chosen vessels throught the Holy Spirit.
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Caretaker
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Amen Betty and Watcher!!!!!!!!
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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TEXASGRANDMA
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going to borrow from my friend:
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Icon 2 posted July 24, 2005 10:11 AM Profile for Watcher Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote http://members.aol.com/RSy2717/pretrib.html
50 Evidences for the Pre-Trib Rapture
Historical Doctrine of Imminency
1. The early church believed in the imminency of the Lord's return. While it can be debated which church father said what, there is a consistency in the early church on imminency which is essential to the pre-trib position and in opposition to some other positions.
2. The Pre-trib position is the ONLY one which truly teaches imminency.
3. The fact that there is a greater development of the doctrine in recent centuries does not preclude it from the early centuries.
In the very early years of the church you see the development of great fundamentals doctrines of Trinity, Deity, God-man, canon of Scripture, etc. Following those early church councils is a time of decline in the corporate church into great apostasy. The teaching of that time are built on many of the heresies of Augustine. When the Reformation comes, there is a period of reestablishing the foundational doctrines of salvation.
Now, in these last days there is both and ability and a need in the church to better understand the doctrines of eschatology and the Spirit is continuing His ministry of guiding the church in all truth.
4. The exhortation to be comforted by the "coming of the Lord" (1Thes 4:1 is valid only in the context of the pre-trib view. It could even be a fearsome thing in a post-trib view.
5. We are exhorted to look for the "Glorious Appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (Titus 2:13) If there are any prophetic events (ie: tribulation) to come first, then this passage is nonsensical.
6. Again, we are to "purify ourselves" in view of his coming.(1 John 3:2-3) If his coming is not imminent then the passage is meaningless.
7. The church told *only* to look for the Coming of Christ. It is Israel and the tribulation saints that are told to look for signs.
Nature of the Church
( Those who do not understand the nature of the church as unique in the program of God will continually be confused about the nature of His coming for the church .)
8. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any context dealing with the second coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.
9. The church is "not appointed to wrath" (Rom 5:9; 1 Thes 1:9-10) The church cannot enter into the "great day of their wrath."
10. The Church will not be "overtaken by the Day of the Lord." (1 Thes 5:1-9) (Day of the Lord is another term for the great tribulation.)
11. The church will be "kept from the hour of testing that shall come upon all the world." (Rev. 3:10)
12. The believer will escape the tribulation (Luke 21:36).
13. It is in the character of God to deliver His own from the greatest times of trial. (Lot, Rahab. Israel, Noah,etc)
14. It is clear that there is a time interval between the translation of the church and the Return of Christ. (John 14:3)
15. Only the pre-trib position does not divide the Body of Christ on a works principle as does partial rapture does so clearly and others to a lesser extent. It becomes a climatic finale to the grand plan of salvation by grace alone.
16. The Scriptures are adamant that the church is undivided. In this age the church is divided by the continuing old nature in the believers. When we are glorified at the coming of Christ, the church is no more divided.
17. The godly remnant of the tribulation has the attributes seen in OT Israel and not the church. The church is not present in the prophecies of Revelation.
18. The pre-trib view, unlike the post-trib view does not confuse terms like elect and saints which apply to believers of all ages, as opposed to terms like church and in Christ, which apply only to those who are the body of Christ in this age.
The Work of the Holy Spirit
19. The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer of evil in the world. He cannot be taken out as prophesied unless the church which is indwelt by the Holy Spirit is taken out.
20. The Holy Spirit will be taken out before the "lawless one" is revealed. That lawless one will certainly be revealed in the tribulation. In fact, the tribulation begins with the signing of the covenant between that lawless one and Israel. That act will reveal him.
21. The "falling away" in 2 Thes 2:3 would better be understood in its context as "the departure." This is a reference to the departure of the Holy Spirit as He indwells the church.
22. The work of the Holy Spirit making the church like Christ where they submit to death and persecution, whereas the OT saints (see many of the Psalms) and the tribulations saints cry out for vengeance (Rev 6:10)
The Hermeneutical Argument
23. Only the pre-trib view allows for a truely literal interpretation in all of the OT & NT passages regarding the great tribulation.
24. Only the pre-trib position clearly distinguishes the church and Israel and God's dealing with each. The Necessity of an Interval of Time between the Rapture and the Second Coming
25. All believers must appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10). This event is never mentioned in the account of events surrounding the second coming.
26. The "four and twenty elders" in rev 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church. Therefore it is necessary that the church, undivided, be brought to glory before those events of the tribulation.
27. There is clearly a coming of Christ for his bride before the second coming to earth. Rev 19:7-10.
28. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary activities. These specifically include farming, construction, and giving birth. (Is 65:20-25).
29. The Judgment of the Gentile nations following the second coming (Mat 25:31-46) indicates that both the saved and the lost are in a natural body which would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the second coming.
30. If the translation took place at the same time as the second coming, there would be no need to separating the sheep from the goats at the subsequent judgment. The act of the translation would be the separation.
31. The Judgment of Israel (Ez 20:34-3 occurs after the second coming and requires a regathered Israel. Again, the separation of the saved and the lost would be unnecessary if all the saved had previously been separated by a translation at the second coming.
Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming.
32. At the Rapture, the church meets Christ in the air. At the second coming, Christ returns to the Mt of Olives.
33. At the time of the Rapture, the Mt of Olives is unchanged. At the second coming it is divided forming a valley east of Jerusalem.
34. At the time of the rapture, saints are translated. No saints are translated at the time of the second coming.
35. At the time of the rapture, the world is not judge for sin, but descends deeper into sin. At the second coming, the world is Judged by the King of kings.
36. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance from the day of wrath, whereas the coming of Christ is a deliverance for those who have suffered under severe tribulation.
37. The rapture is immanent whereas there are specific signs which precede the second coming.
38. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the NT. The second coming with the events surrounding it is prominent in both OT and NT.
39. The rapture is only for the saved, while the tribulation and second coming deals with the entire world.
40. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the rapture. Many signs must be fulfilled before the second coming of Christ.
41. No passage in either OT or NT deals with the resurrection of the saints at the second coming nor mentions the translation of living saints at that same time.
The Nature of the Tribulation
42. Only the pre-trib view maintains the distinction between the "great tribulation" and the tribulations in general which we all experience.
43. The great tribulation is properly understood in the pre-trib view as a preparation for the restoration of Israel. (Deut 4:29-30. Jer 30:4-11, Dan 9:24-27, Dan 12:1-2)
44. Not one single passage in the OT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.
45. Not one single passage in the NT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.
46. In contrast to mid trib or pre-wrath views, the pre-trib view offers an adequate explanation for the beginning of the great tribulation in Rev 6. These others are clearly refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the great tribulation begins long before the 7th trumpet of Rev 11.
47. There is no proper groundwork provided that the 7th trumpet of Rev is the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15. It is accepted only on the basis of assumption. The pre-trib view maintains the proper distinction between the prophetic trumpets of the church and the trumpets of the tribulation.
48. The Unity of Daniel's 70th week is maintained by the pre-trib view. By contrast, the mid-trib view destroys the unity and confuses the program for Israel and the church. The post trib view usually denies the clear teaching of the 70th weeks by subverting it into some form or another of allegory.
49. The gathering of saints after the tribulation is done by angels whereas the gathering of the church is done by "The Lord Himself."
50. Rev 22:17-20 And the Spirit and the Bride say come. And he that heareth, let him say come ... He who testifieth of these things saith
"Yea, I come quickly, AMEN. COME LORD JESUS.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews ll:1)
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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epouraniois
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Myself, definately up for more studying. How 'bout them verses?
Where would be the best place for me to start, in order to see Christ coming back 2 more times? As I'm afraid I must've missed those verses somehow.
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epouraniois
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Hi there Gma,
Could you please quote a few verses depicting that Paul taught the 'blessed hope' is a 'pre-trib rapture' at the sound of which 'trump'.
Thanks in advance.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Paul taught the pre-trib rapture. I believe in it.
You are free to believe what you wish. That I have no problems with at all. Me, I am waiting for the Blessed Hope. When the trumpet sounds, I am out of here.
betty
Just a side note. It has been said that Jesus is coming back for those who are looking for Him. You might want to go back and do some more studying.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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epouraniois
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When a man goes up against the doctrines and traditions of men that have been believed and taught for many years , he will find himself alone on the outside looking in . His own friends will turn against him and turn away from him and accuse him of being a trouble maker. Thats what happened to Paul , but he was willing to suffer abuse if that is what it took to show and reveal the truth to people that God revealed to him.
It would be much easier to just go along with the religious system and preach their "rapture" as being the hope of the church today for the majority do. It would be much easier to just ignore and even deny what Paul said about the hope in I Thess.4 and I Cor.15 like everybody else is doing. But when God changes his program and replaces it with something new and better, it is wrong to go on preaching what He changed.
In other words, if God revealed a hope to Paul in his prison epistles that is different and better than the one he wrote about in his Acts epistles wouldn't it be wrong to go on teaching the hope in the Acts epistles as the hope of the church today ???
Well, in the apostles prison epistles, Paul never once spoke about the Lord coming. Instead he is given further revelation bringing a better hope. The new hope revealed after Acts is that the church appears/manifest with Christ *to make complete* when He manifests.
The word epiphaneia, its origin is found in the verb phaino, which originally had to do with the action of throwing or shining light upon, and in course of time came to mean "to shine forth." By an easy transition this word was applied to the appearing of men and things; so, as a rule, when this word is found in the New Testament, it usually means "to appear." This will be seen in Matt. 1:20; 2:1; and 13:26. However, it should be noted that this is a later meaning of phaino, and when it began to be used this way, it did not lose its earlier meaning. This will be found in numerous occurrences where phaino means "to shine." See Matt. 24:21; John 1:5; 5:35; Phil. 2:15 and Rev. 1:16.
From the word phaino another word developed by the addition of the accelerative prefix epi. This is the verb epiphaino which is certainly a much stronger word. And in order to express this strength, it would be much better to use the words "blaze forth" in certain occurrences. This verb appears four times in the New Testament where it is very weakly translated and treated as if it meant the same as phaino. A concordance is given.
Luke 1 : 79-to give light to them that sit in darkness
Acts 27 :20-sun nor stars in many days appeared
Titus 2: ll-bringeth salvation hath appeared
Titus 3 :4-love of God our Savior toward man appeared
From the above references it can be seen that some form of the idea, "to blaze forth," is in all these occurrences.
It is from the verb epiphaino that the noun epiphaneia developed. This is found six times in Scripture as follows:
2 Thess. 2 :8-with the brightness of His coming
1 Tim. 6: 14-the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ
2 Tim. 1: lO-the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ
2 Tim. 4:1-at His appearing and His kingdom
2 Tim. 4:8-them also that love His appearing
Titus 2: 13-the glorious appearing of the great God
The inadequacy of the translations displayed above is apparent. They also treat epiphaneia as if it were derived from the verb phaino. It could be better translated "blazing forth" in each occurrence. However, it is evident from both New Testament and Classical Greek usage that this word was developed to express a very special idea, so much so, that it can be said that, while epiphaneia means a "blazing forth," it always carries in it the idea of a favorable intervention.
In the first occurrence of epiphaneia (2 Thess. 2:8), it is used with the word parousia; but we should not conclude that the epiphaneia of this passage and that of Titus 2:13 are the same. This tells us that the man of sin, that wicked one, will be destroyed by the blazing forth (favorable intervention) of His parousia.
The most important occurrence of epiphaneia to the present day believer is the one found in Titus 2:13, where in the King James Version it reads: "Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ."
This is not the epiphaneia of His parousia. This is where Paul speaks of the church which is His body blazing forth in glory when Christ blazes forth in glory. This takes place, as it is written, far above all, in the heavenly places.
Those of the earthly kingdom hope of Israel will see Him coming in glory. The church body will simply appear when Christ appears in the heavenly places.
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
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epouraniois
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The Bible has really given us 3 major admonishments on how to study, precept upon precept, that's comparing like with like. Spiritual with Spiritual. And try, or testing the things that are different.
This is a study done by an ex rapture believer:
People use I Thess. 1:10 to try to prove that the resurrection in I Thess. 4 takes place before the tribulation period begins . They point out that it says they would be delivered from the "wrath to cone" and that they were not appointed to wrath in I Thess.5:9. But , that cannot be, true for Paul also told them , they would be resurrected at the last trumpet in I Cor.15:52 and the last trumpet is the seventh of seven , that will be blown DURING the tribulation before Jesus comes at the end. Paul also told them that the day of Christ which was His coming and their gathering together unto Him , was not at hand ,for it would be PRECEEDED by a falling away and the revelation of the Anti-Christ , which all takes place DURING THE TRIBULATION , NOT BEFORE . (II Thess.2:1-6 ) You cannot ignore these facts when reading I Thess.1:10.
Lets compare what Jesus says here with what Paul says.
THE HOPE OF MATT. 24 IS THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
Verse 30 ,
"they shall see the Son of man COMING "
verse 29,
"For as the lightening cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the COMING of the Son of man be "
THE HOPE OF I COR. 15 AND I THESS. 4 IS THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
In I Cor. 15:22-23 Paul wrote,
"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits ; afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING ".
In I Cor. 1:7 he wrote,
" So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST " .
In I Thess. 4:15 he wrote
"For this we say unto you by the word of the lord, that we which are alive and remain unto THE COMING OF THE LORD shall not prevent them which are asleep "
The hope of the Acts Believers was the coming of the Lord. Paul mentions it 10 times in his Acts epistles . Check them out and see for yourself , I Cor. 1:7 , 4:5, 11:26 , 15:23, I Thess.2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 5:23, 11 Thess.1:10, 2:1 .
This must be the secong coming, but the rapturists must then, believe in 3 comings, which is nowhere to be found Biblically.
IN MATT. 24 WHEN JESUS COMES , HE COMES IN THE CLOUDS
Verse 30 says,
" They shall see the Son of man coming in the CLOUDS OF HEAVEN "
IN 1 THESS. AND I COR. 15 WHEN JESUS COMES HE COMES IN CLOUDS.
Verse 17 says,
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS , to meet the Lord in the air".
If you want to know were the clouds are, look up into the air, and you will see them . It's the clouds in the lower atmosphere .
IN MATT. 24 WHEN JESUS COMES IN THE CLOUDS HE WILL. COME WITH ANGELS
Verse 31,
"And He shall send forth his ANGELS "
IN 1 THESS. 4 AND 1 COR. 15 WHEN JESUS COMES IN THE CLOUDS HE WILL COME WITH ANGELS
In 1 Thess. 4:16 it says,
" HE will descend from heaven with... the voice of the ARCHANGEL.
Michael is the archangel and the prince of Israel (DAN 12:1-2) and were Michael goes so does HIS ANGELS , read Rev. 12:7.
IN MATT. 24 WHEN JESUS COMES IN THE CLOUDS WITH ANGELS A TRUMPET IS BLOWN.
Verse 31,
"And he shall send his angels with a great SOUND OF A TRUMPET "
IN 1 THESS. 4 AND I COR. 15 WHEN JESUS COMES IN THE CLOUDS WITH ANGELS A TRUMPET IS BLOWN .
I Cor. 15:52 says,
"FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND and the dead shall be raised " I Thess.4:16 says " The Lord himself shall descend from heaven ...WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD".
THE TRUMPET THAT IS BLOWN IN MATT.24 IS THE LAST TRUMPET FOR IT IS BLOWN AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION
Verse 29 says
" Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... vs. 31 "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet".
THE TRUMPET IN 1 THESS. 4 AND I COR.15 IS SPECIFICALLY CALLS THE LAST TRUMPET
In I Cor. 15:52 Paul wrote,
"In a moment , in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the Trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised ".
WHEN THE RESURRECTION OF MATT. 24 TAKES PLACE, NOT ONLY WILL THE LORD DESCEND FROM HEAVEN IN THE CLOUDS WITH ANGELS AND A TRUMPET, BUT A VOICE WILL BE HEARD ALSO.
The voice is not mentioned in Matt. 24 but it is in JOHN 5:25, 28. It says
" The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live"
IN 1 THESS. 4 AND I COR. 15 WHEN THE LORD DESCENDS FROM HEAVEN INTO THE CLOUDS WITH ANGELS AND THE SOUND OF A TRUMPET, A VOICE WILL BE HEARD
In I Thess.4:16 Paul said " the Lord shall descend fray heaven WITH A SHOUT 0
The shout is for the dead ; the trumpet for those alive.
IN MATT.24 WHEN JESUS COMES WITH HIS ANGELS ,AND A SHOUT AND A
THE SOUND OF A TRUMPET, HIS ELECT WILL BE GATHERED TOGETHER
Verse 31 says
" They shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other ( Also read Mk.13:27)
IN I COR. 15 AND 1 THESS. 4 WHEN JESUS OOZES WITH A SBA, A TRUMPET, AND ANGELS, HIS ELECT WILL BE GAS TOGETHER
In II Thess. 2:1 Paul wrote "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM R.
And those that he gathers together here , are his elect also according to I Thess.l:4, and II Thess.2:13.
THE RESURRECTION IN I THESS. 4 AND I COR. 15 WILL BE SUDDEN AND UNEXPECTED ALSO.
In ICor. 15:52 Paul said: "IN A MOMENT , IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, at the last trump: For the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised..."
When Paul says: "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye," he is showing you HOW FAST that resurrection will take place. But when he says "AT the last trump", he is showing you WHEN it will take place. It will be sudden and unexpected, just like the hope of Matt. 24.
WHEN THE RESURRECTION OF MATT. 24 TAKES PLACE, BELIEVERS WHO ARE ALIVE WILL BE CAUGHT UP WITHOUT DYING.
This fact is brought out by the Lord in John. 11. In John 11, Lazarus who was Martha's brother died and she wants Christ to raise him from the dead. And Jesus said unto her in vs. 23 "Thy brother shall rise again". Martha saith .unto him, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." Jesus said unto her: "I am the resurrection; and the life: he that believeth in me; though he were dead, yet shall he live. AND WHOSOEVER LIVETH AND Believeth IN ML SHALL NEVER DIE.. BELIEVEST THOU THIS?"
When Jesus said, he that believeth in me though he were dead, yet shall he live" He is referring to those who are dead when the resurrection of the last day takes place. And when He said "whosoever liveth and believeth in me" He is referring to those who are alive when the resurrection of the last day takes place and he says: "THEY SHALL NEVER DIE". When the resurrection of Matt. 24 takes place, those believers who are dead will be raised and those believers who are alive, will be gathered together without dying.
WHEN THE RESURRECTION OF 1 THESS. 4 AND I COR. 15 TAKES PLACE BELIEVERS WHO ARE ALIVE WILL BE CAUGHT UP WITHOUT DYING.
In I Cor. 15:51 Paul said: "I shew you a Mystery; WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP, but we shall be changed _"
The Mystery of I Cor. 15:51 is not the resurrection, but it's the fact that there will be some caught up without dying. But this is a mystery hidden in the Scriptures, for in vs.55 Paul quotes Isa. 25:8 which says "O Death where is thy sting?" In other words, in the Old Testament Scriptures, it was written down that somebody was going to get out of this life without experiencing the sting of death.
This is what Jesus is referring to in John 11 when he said "He that liveth and believeth in me shall never die." That was the only time that Christ mentioned that fact to anyone, and prior to Paul it was the general consensus that by the time that resurrection took place all believers would be dead . But God opened up the scriptures to Paul and he was the first man to fully understand that fact and write about it. But, nevertheless, it was in the Old Testament Scriptures, even though concealed.
THE HOPE OF MATT. 24 WAS ISRAEL'S HOPE.
The resurrection Jesus describes in Matt.24 is the hope of the New Covenant that God made with Israel.
HOPE OF PAUL'S ACTS EPISTLES, WAS THE HOPE OF ISRAEL.
In Acts 28:20 Paul told the Jews in Rome "For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for THE HOPE OF ISRAEL, I AM HOUND WITH THIS CHAIN.
Paul refers to the Hope of Israel 4 times in Acts.
1. In Acts 23:6 he mentions the Hope as being resurrection
2. In Acts 24:15 he mentions the hope as being resurrection
3. In Acts 26:6-8 He mentions the hope as being resurrection
4. In Acts 28:20-23 he mentions the Hope in connection with the Kingdom of God.
The Hope of Israel was to be resurrected into the kingdom of God, as a matter of fact, the only way they could get into the Kingdom of God was by resurrection.
That's exactly what Paul is showing the Corinthians in I Cor. 15 . In that chapter he is showing them how to get into the Kingdom of God, and guess what he told them had to happen for them to get in ? They had to be resurrected and changed. WHY? Because in vs. 50 he said:
"Now this I say; brethren, that flesh and blood- cannot inherit the Kingdom-of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
And in vs. 51 he told them they would all be changed, and the change would take place in resurrection. ICor. 15 and I Thess. 4 is the hope of Israel. The hope of Israel was resurrection into the Kingdom of God, which is exactly what Paul is writing about in this chapter.
You say: "How did Gentiles in that church end up with Israel's Hope?" Because in the Acts period, they were grafted into Israel the good olive tree, according to Rom.11:17. And being grafted into the tree, they partook of the fatness of the olive tree. The fatness of the olive tree were the blessings and promises made to the fathers, who were the root of the tree - Rom.15:2'7. And one of those blessings and promises WAS THEIR HOPE OF RESURRECTION.
BEFORE THE HOPE OF MATT. 24 TAKES PUCE THERE WILL BE A FALLING AWAY, THAT IS APOSTACY, AND THE REVELATION OF THE ANTI-CHRIST.
In Matt. 24:11 Jesus said
"Many false prophets shall rise and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." (A reference to apostasy )
And in vs. 15 He said,
'Men ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the Holy place..." (A reference to the anti-Christ Dan. 11:31)
In vs. 24 he said
"there would be false Christ's; and false prophets, and shall chew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (A reference to the Devil working miracles )
PAUL SAID THE EXACT SAME THING WOULD TAKE PLACE BEFORE THE RESURRECTION OF I THESS. 4 AND I COR. 15 WOULD TAKE PLACE.
In II Thess. 2:1 he wrote:
"Now we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, anti by our gathering together unto him; "that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled , neither by spirit, nor by word, nor as by letter as from us that the day of Christ is at hand."
The day of Christ in vs.2 , was his coming and their gathering together unto him in vs. 1. The Thessalonians were "all shook up" because somebody wrote then a false letter and told them it was at hand, that is, it had already taken place. Which, if it were true, they were left behind to face the wrath of IIThess.l:8-9. So Paul to assure them that He had not come, tells them in vs.3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not came, except there came a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, skewing himself that he is God.
( He also mentions the Devil working miracles in verse 9 )
The point is the Hope of I Thess. 4 which was the Day of Christ, would not take place until AFTER a period of apostasy and the revelation of the Anti-Christ , just like the resurrection in Matt. 24.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
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HisGrace
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Adv. Christian often if we become too analytical and expect to see certain things in the scriptures that haven't been revealed to us, we become more confused and aren't at peace with any answer we receive.
John often refers to believers as 'children.' We have to read the scriptures with child-like faith. If we don't understand them, sometimes we have to trust insight gained by fellow brothers and sisters who have prayfully gradually gained new bits of wisdom and knowledge through time.
quote:
What I am asking for is help in understanding how the belief of Rapture is derived or why it is believed in in this way. Given the fact that I have a different understanding of the subject I naturally tend to see the scriptures from the angle consistent with that belief and I am attempting to learn how the believers in Rapture see the application of the scriptures in order to be able to study and confirm or disprove my understanding of what the scriptures are or are not saying concerning this matter
I personally can't answer the above question, and in my mind I don't see the necessity to answer such a question. This is getting too technical for me, and I don't believe the Bible deals with the many avenues of why and wherefores, just the facts.
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Adv.Christian
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HisGrace thank you for your input on the subject at hand, I thank you and it is very useful. Epouraniois, thank you also for your input and views.
I think however I have not conveyed what I am attempting to get everybody’s help with very clearly. What I am asking for is help in understanding how the belief of Rapture is derived or why it is believed in in this way. Given the fact that I have a different understanding of the subject I naturally tend to see the scriptures from the angle consistent with that belief and I am attempting to learn how the believers in Rapture see the application of the scriptures in order to be able to study and confirm or disprove my understanding of what the scriptures are or are not saying concerning this matter. Please understand I am fully aware of the fact that only God can open my or anyone’s eyes to what the scripture says but I also know He expects us to teach and learn from our brothers and sisters. As always my love to all and May God bless.
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A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
Posts: 299 | From: Raleigh/North Carolina | Registered: Jun 2004
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epouraniois
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I would like to bring a different take on the one thing that is definately not in the Bible, and that is the word Rapture, or any Biblical 'hope', or 'calling', or 'predestination', or 'adoption' into such an event. And the word does not come from the Latin word catch up, that is English coming from the word rapture, not the other way around, and the definition of caught up is not in the primary position of definition, several other words are. In fact, if one is to associate the Latin word for rapture with being caught up, it is to be caught up in sexual exctasy of a violent sort. The fact is, the Latin word for rapture is the same as the Engilsh word for rape. And that is a fact.
IMO, the Lord God Almighty has a mastery of language as well as everything else, and the one place He definately speaks of any fly away doctrine and those who teach it is found in Ez13, where I read He is against those who "teach His children to fly to save their souls".
He says He is against those who teach His children to fly to save their souls. Appearently this has no meaning for the 'rapture crowd'. It doesn't seem to bother them that they word is not present, nor are their any direct statements saying a rapture is the blessed hope of the believer.
DECEIVED:
planaō
plan-ah'-o
From G4106; to (properly cause to) roam (from safety, truth, or virtue): - go astray, err, seduce, wander, be out of the way.
There are several hopes of the believer, and many do exist in resurrection, but there is at no time, either in the Greek, or the English, even one reference of the Lord coming back before the day of the Lord.
What is actually written? First lets look at what the Lord Himself said:
The whole period covered by "the day of the Lord" is called the final meeting of the ages, or the sunteleia; but, the crisis in which it culminates is called the telos, the end of the age.
Both are rendered "end" in the New Testament, but the use of these two words must be carefully distinguished.
Sunteleia denotes a finishing or ending together, or in conjunction with other things. Consummation is perhaps the best English rendering. It implies that several things meet together, and reach their end during the same period; whereas telos is the point of time at the end of that period For example, in Matt. 24. 3 the disciples ask, "What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the sunteleia of the age."
In His answer, the Lord speaks of the whole of the sunteleia. But three times He mentions the telos to say that "the telos is not yet" *verse 6*; to give a promise to him "that shall endure unto the telos" *verse 13*; to mark the crisis in verse 14, which comes immediately after the close of the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom." "Then shall the telos come." The sign of the telos is the setting up of "the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet." Thus the telos, and he who endures to this, the same shall be saved, and will be among the overcomers.
The overcomer is one who endures unto the telos, they will see the sunteleia.
Those who are not overcomers are decieved.
In Mat24 He makes clear those who cannot be deceived are the very elect. That means the very elect are the overcomers. They will not be deceived, they will endure unto the telos, witness to the sunteleia,the final meeting of the ages, the day of the Lord, the Lord's day, at the 7th trumpet.
Our Lord speaking:
"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 "Immediately after the distress of those days
"'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Matt 24:26-31
Jesus says that He will come after the sun will be darkened, after the moon is darkened, after the stars fall…etc. Notice He says...”they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky. Sounds familiar doesn’t it …look at Acts 1:10
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
Lets see what the prophets have said of the Day of the Lord, for instance:
Isa 13:9-11
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Ezek 30:3
3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
Joel 2:1-2
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
Joel 2:31-32
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Amos 5:20
20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
Zeph 1:14-15
14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. 15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Darkness and Clouds seem to be common on the Day of the Lord, wouldn't you say?
Luke 21:7-28
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? 8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. 10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not a hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls. 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give **** , in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
1 Thess 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Shall rise first! The first Resurrection! Check Rev 20
Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Notice these people did not take the mark. First Resurrection after the tribulation.
Dead in Christ shall rise first.
Just so you know, the Lord won't be back before the tribulation heres some reinforcement:
2Th 2:2-4
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Remember we true believers are not so that that day should overcome us like a theif, we shall continue unto the telos!
And if the Lords return is supposed to be a secret snatching away then why all the fan fair? Trumpets of God, Shout of the Archangel. Earthquake! ? ! Clearly the tribulation period has past, for why would Jesus still be proclaiming his coming as a theif in Rev 16:15
Rev 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Notice the Lord has not come as a thief to those watching, and yet immediately after we see the gathering at Armageddon.
The Pre-Tribulational message clearly needs two days of the Lord, and two resurrections of the saints in order to be valid.
It is more faithful to trust the Lord himself, and not the doctrines of men.
Also, there is the MAJOR fact, that the Thess epistles were written very early during the kingdom offer to Israel, and had she repented and so turned back to her King, their 'at hand' kingdom would've come, they would have witnessed as overcomers the whole of the sunteleia and the telos. There is nothing to indicate anywheres that the 'at hand' kingdom would anticipate any leaving the earth before the day of the Lord.
I believe that if being rap...is Biblical, it would be closely associated with the believers hope, so lets look at a couple of Biblical hopes:
Where we read of "hope" in the New Testament we often find in the context a reference either to a "promise" or to a "calling". For example, Paul before Agrippa says:
"And now I stand and am judged for THE HOPE OF THE PROMISE made of God unto our fathers; unto which promise OUR TWELVE TRIBES, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come" (Acts 26:6,7).
We should be able to find rap...being an OT hope then according to the above verse, for that HOPE LOOKS TO THE FULFILMENT OF A PROMISE. It is therefore necessary to discover what promise has been made to any particular company before we can speak with understanding of their hope. Another prerequisite is a knowledge of the "calling" concerned.
"That ye may know what is THE HOPE OF HIS CALLING" (Eph. 1: 18).
"Even as ye are called in ONE HOPE OF YOUR CALLING" (Eph. 4:4).
The realization of our hope in the future will be in agreement with our calling now by faith.
"Now faith is the substance of things HOPED for" (Heb. 11 :1).
There are at least three distinct spheres of blessing, which brings three distinct hopes, indicated in the New Testament:
1. The Earth. - "Blessed are the meek; for they shall inherit the earth" (Matt. 5:5).
2. The Heavenly City. - "The city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem . . . and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven" (Heb. 12:22,23).
3. Far above all. - "He ascended up, far above all heavens" (Eph.4:10). "And made us sit together in heavenly places" (Eph. 2:6).
These three spheres of blessing correspond to three distinct callings wherein lie three distinct hopes:
1. The Kingdom. - "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth" (Matt. 6:10).
2. The Bride. - "The Bride, the Lamb's wife . . . the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God" (Rev. 21:9,10).
3. The Body. - "His body. . . the church: whereof I (Paul) am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you . . . the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations" (Col. 1 :24-26).
These three spheres of blessing, each with its special calling, have associated with them three groups of people in the N.T. The first sphere of blessing is exclusive to ISRAEL according to the flesh; the second to believers from among both "JEW and GREEK", while in the third sphere the calling is addressed to "YOU GENTILES".
1. Israel according to the flesh. - "My kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises, whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, Who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen" (Rom. 9:3-5).
2. Abraham's seed (includes believing Gentiles). - "Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? . . . they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. . . . For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. There is neither Jew or Greek . . . for ye are .all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3:3,7,9,27-29).
3. The One New Man. - "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew . . . but Christ is all and in all" (Col. 3:11).
"That He might create in Himself of the twain one new man, so making peace" (Eph. 2:15 R.V.).
"That the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs" (Eph. 3:6).
Note that at no point in these three callings/hopes, is there one about leaving the planet to escape the great tribulation. For that matter, at no time in all of the Bible does God save anyone from tribulation. He saves many through tribulation, but never from them. He shall save His faithful throught even the great tribulation, for it is written that there shall be some who endure unto the telos.
If any would read consecutively Daniel nine, ten, e1even and twelve, 1 Thessalonians four and five, 2 Thessalonians one and two, and Revelation thirteen, the testimony of the truth itself would be so strong as to need no human advocate.
The scriptures speak for themselves. WATCH NOW OR SEE LATER!
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HisGrace
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The Rapture, etc. have to be studied quite thoroughly in order to be able to get a clear concept of the proper sequence of events. There are clues dotted throughout the whole Bible regarding the Rapture, tribulation and Jesus' Second Coming. We can see a summation of events in Revelation.
The Rapture -
Notice in the following scripture that we are being transported to heaven. In the Second Coming Jesus comes down to earth. We don't go to heaven at that point.
Rev. 4. 1,2 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.
Tribulation
Further on Rev. 6 speaks about the anti -christ, which is during the tribulation.
Jesus' Second Coming
The first part of Rev. 19 speaks about the Bride, already in heaven, being prepared to return with Jesus for his Second Coming.
Rev. 19:5 And from the throne came a voice that said. "Praise our God, all his servants, from the least to the greatest, all who fear Him."
In Rev. 19:19-21 Then I saw the beast gathering the kings of the earth and their armies in order to fight against the one sitting on the horse and his army.(This shows that Jesus had returned to earth at this point.)
And the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who did mighty miracles on behalf of the beast--miracles that deceived all who had accepted the mark of the beast and who worshiped his statue. Both the beast and his false prophet were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. Their entire army was killed by the sharp sword that came out of the mouth of the one riding the white horse. And all the vultures of the sky gorged themselves on the dead bodies.
The Thousand Years
Rev. 20:1-3 Then I saw an angel come down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. 2He seized the dragon--that old serpent, the Devil, Satan--and bound him in chains for a thousand years. 3The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he would be released again for a little while.
Later on Rev. 20 it refers to the final the final judgment and Rev. 21 talks about the new heaven and the new earth
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Adv.Christian
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Watcher thank you for your reply ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif) It is helpful in the matter but I would like to know alittle more in depth if it is possible.
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A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
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The Rapture of the Church
What is it and when will it take place?
by Dr. David R. Reagan
The Rapture is a glorious event which God has promised to the Church. The promise is that someday very soon, at the blowing of a trumpet and the shout of an archangel, Jesus will appear in the sky and take up His Church, living and dead, to Heaven.
The Term
The term, Rapture, comes from a Latin word that means to catch up, to snatch away, or to take out. It is a Biblical word that comes right out of the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. The word is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In the New American Standard Version, the English phrase, “caught up,” is used. The same phrase is used in the King James and New International Versions.
A Promise to the Church
The concept of the Rapture was not revealed to the Old Testament prophets because it is a promise to the New Testament Church and not to the saints of God who lived before the establishment of the Church.
The saints of Old Testament times will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation and not at the time of the Rapture of the Church. Daniel reveals this fact in Daniel 12:1-2 where he says that the saints of that age will be resurrected at the end of the “time of distress.”
Biblical References
The first clear mention of the Rapture in Scripture is found in the words of Jesus recorded in John 14:1-4. Jesus said, “I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”
The most detailed revelation of the actual events related to the Rapture is given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He says that when Jesus appears, the dead in Christ (Church age saints) will be resurrected and caught up first. Then, those of us who are alive in Christ will be translated “to meet the Lord in the air.” Paul then exhorts us to “comfort one another with these words.”
Paul mentions the Rapture again in 1 Corinthians 15 - his famous chapter on the resurrection of the dead:
“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.” (verses 51 and 52)
Paul’s reference here to being changed is an allusion to the fact that the saints will receive glorified bodies that will be perfected, imperishable and immortal (1 Cor. 15:42-44, and 50-55).
The Timing
The most controversial aspect of the Rapture is its timing. Some place it at the end of the Tribulation, making it one and the same event as the Second Coming. Others place it in the middle of the Tribulation. Still others believe that it will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation.
The reason for these differing viewpoints is that the exact time of the Rapture is not precisely revealed in scripture. It is only inferred. There is, therefore, room for honest differences of opinion, and lines of fellowship should certainly not be drawn over differences regarding this point, even though it is an important point.
Post-Tribulation Rapture
Those who place the timing at the end of the Tribulation usually base their argument on two parables in Matthew 13 and on the Lord’s Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24.
In Matthew 24 the Lord portrays His gathering of the saints as an event that will take place “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (Matt. 24:29). This certainly sounds like a post-Tribulation Rapture. But it must be kept in mind that the book of Matthew was written to the Jews, and therefore the recording of Jesus’ speech by Matthew has a distinctively Jewish flavor to it as compared to Luke’s record of the same speech.
Note, for example, Matthew’s references to Judea and to Jewish law regarding travel on the Sabbath (Matt. 24:15-20). These are omitted in Luke’s account. Instead, Luke speaks of the saints looking up for deliverance “to escape all these things” when the end time signs “begin to take place” (Luke 21:28 and 36). The saints in Matthew are instructed to flee from Judea and hide. The saints in Luke are told to look up for deliverance.
It appears, therefore, that Matthew and Luke are speaking of two different sets of saints. The saints in Matthew’s account are most likely Jews who receive Jesus as their Messiah during the Tribulation. The saints in Luke are those who receive Christ before the Tribulation begins. Most of those who accept the Lord during the Tribulation will be martyred (Rev. 7:9-14). Those who live to the end will be gathered by the angels of the Lord (Matt. 24:31).
The parable of the wheat and tares (Matt. 13:24-30) and the parable of the dragnet (Matt. 13:47-50) can be explained in the same way. They refer to a separation of saints and sinners that will take place at the end of the Tribulation. The saints are those who receive Jesus as their Savior during the Tribulation (Gentile and Jew) and who live to the end of that awful period.
Mid-Tribulation Rapture
There are variations of the mid-Tribulation Rapture concept. The most common is that the Church will be taken out in the exact middle of the Tribulation, at the point in time when the Antichrist is revealed.
This concept is based upon a statement in 1 Corinthians 15:52 which says that the Rapture will occur at the blowing of “the last trumpet.” This trumpet is then identified with the seventh trumpet of the trumpet judgments in the book of Revelation. Since the blowing of the seventh trumpet is recorded in Revelation 11, the mid-point of the Tribulation, the conclusion is that the Rapture must occur in the middle of the Tribulation.
But there are two problems with this interpretation. The first is that the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is blown for believers whereas the seven trumpets of Revelation 8, 9 and 11 are sounded for unbelievers. The Revelation trumpets have no relevance for the Church. The last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is a trumpet for the righteous. The last trumpet for the unrighteous is the one described in Revelation 11.
Another problem with this interpretation is that the passage in Revelation 11 that portrays the sounding of the seventh trumpet is a “flash forward” to the end of the Tribulation. Flash forwards are very common in the book of Revelation. They occur after something terrible is described in order to assure the reader that everything is going to turn out all right when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation.
Thus, the eighth and ninth chapters of Revelation, which describe the horrors of the trumpet judgments, are followed immediately by a flash forward in chapter 10 that pictures the return of Jesus in victory at the end of the Tribulation. The mid-Tribulation action resumes in chapter 11 with a description of the killing of the two great prophets of God by the Antichrist. Then, to offset that terrible event, we are presented with another flash forward, beginning with verse 15. The seventh trumpet is sounded and we find ourselves propelled forward to the end of the Tribulation when “the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of our Lord.”
The point is that the seventh trumpet of Revelation relates to the end of the Tribulation and not the middle. It is therefore no basis for an argument in behalf of a mid-Tribulation Rapture.
Pre-Wrath Rapture
The cornerstone of this concept is that the terrifying events during the first half of the Tribulation are due to the wrath of Man and Satan, and not to God. Since the Church is only promised protection from the wrath of God, the Rapture will not occur until near the end of the Tribulation when God will pour out His wrath on the world.
This concept raises a serious theological problem because it questions the sovereignty of God. It assumes that Man and Satan can act apart from God’s will, when the fact of the matter is that neither can do anything God is not willing to permit. The Bible often portrays God carrying out His will through evil persons or nations. One of the classic examples is when He allowed the evil nation of Babylon to discipline Israel by destroying Jerusalem and the Temple and by carrying the surviving Jews away into captivity. It was an action that prompted the prophet Habakkuk to ask why God would punish those who are evil with those who are more evil (Habakkuk 1:13).
Any carnage wrought by Man or Satan during the Tribulation will still constitute the wrath of God. They will simply be His instruments. The Bible says God sits in the heavens and laughs over the plots and deeds of evil men, not because He does not care, but because He has everything under control (Psalm 2:1-6). The point is that He has the wisdom and power to orchestrate all evil to the triumph of His will in history. That’s why the psalmist wrote that “the wrath of man shall praise You [God]” (Psalm 76:10).
I think it is also important to note that when God pours out His wrath, He does not always do so directly. One of His most common ways is to simply back away from the nation or person and lower the hedge of protection around them. This is clearly spelled out in Romans 1:18-32. That passage says that when people rebel against God to the point that they begin to worship the creation rather than the Creator, God “gives them over” to the evil in their hearts. In other words, He just steps back and lets evil multiply. The passage further states that if they still refuse to repent, He steps back again and “gives them over to degrading passions.” And if they persist in their rebellion and sin, He finally “gives them over to a depraved mind” at which point the society destroys itself. Such destruction could be viewed as the wrath of Man, but it is really the wrath of God working through Man.
There is another serious problem with the pre-wrath Rapture concept. It relates to the fact that all the wrath of Revelation is specifically portrayed as the wrath of God. Where do the seal judgments originate? The answer is from the throne of God as Jesus opens each seal of the scroll that was in the Father’s right hand (Revelation 6:1). And where do the trumpet judgments originate? The same place — from the throne of God (Revelation 8:2). When we arrive at the bowl judgments in Revelation 15:1, we are told that with them, “the wrath of God is finished.”
Another problem with the pre-wrath concept is that it does violence to the chronological order of Revelation. The seal judgments are viewed as the wrath of Man and Satan, occurring during the first half of the Tribulation. The trumpet and bowl judgments are considered to be the wrath of God. They are lumped together at the end of the Tribulation. There is no justification for putting the trumpet judgments at the end of the Tribulation. They are clearly placed in the first half of the Tribulation in the chronological layout of the book of Revelation.
One final problem with the pre-wrath concept of the Rapture is that it disputes the fact that there is no purpose for the Church being in the Tribulation. The Tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel, a time devoted to God accomplishing His purposes among the Jewish people, not the Church.
The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
I believe the best inference of Scripture is that the Rapture will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation. The most important reason I believe this has to do with the issue of imminence. Over and over in Scripture we are told to watch for the appearing of the Lord. We are told “to be ready” (Matt. 24:44), “to be on the alert” (Matt. 24:42), “to be dressed in readiness” (Luke 12:35), and to “keep your lamps alight” (Luke 12:35). The clear force of these persistent warnings is that Jesus can appear at any moment.
Only the pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture allows for the imminence of the Lord’s appearing for His Church. When the Rapture is placed at any other point in time, the imminence of the Lord’s appearing is destroyed because other prophetic events must happen first.
For example, if the Rapture is going to occur in mid-Tribulation, then why should I live looking for the Lord’s appearing at any moment? I would be looking instead for an Israeli peace treaty, the rebuilding of the Temple, and the revelation of the Antichrist. Then and only then could the Lord appear.
Focus
This raises the issue of what we are to be looking for. Nowhere are believers told to watch for the appearance of the Antichrist. On the contrary, we are told to watch for Jesus Christ. In Titus 2:13 Paul says we are to live “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.” Likewise, Peter urges us to “fix our hope completely on the grace to be brought to us at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:13). John completes the apostolic chorus by similarly urging us to “fix our hope on Him” at His appearing (1 John 3:2-3).
Only Matthew speaks of watching for the Antichrist (Matt. 24:15), but he is speaking to the Jews living in Israel in the middle of the Tribulation when the Antichrist desecrates the rebuilt Temple.
Wrath
Another argument in behalf of a pre-Tribulation Rapture has to do with the promises of God to protect the Church from His wrath. As has already been demonstrated, the book of Revelation shows that the wrath of God will be poured out during the entire period of the Tribulation.
The Word promises over and over that the Church will be delivered from God’s wrath. Romans 5:9 says that “we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him [Jesus].” 1 Thessalonians 1:10 states that we are waiting “for His Son from heaven . . . who will deliver us from the wrath to come.” The promise is repeated in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 - “God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Deliverance
Some argue that God could supernaturally protect the Church during the Tribulation. Yes, He could. In fact, He promises to do just that for the 144,000 Jews who will be sealed as bond-servants at the beginning of the Tribulation (Rev. 7:1-8).
But God’s promise to the Church during the Tribulation is not one of protection but one of deliverance. Jesus said we would “escape” the horrors of the Tribulation (Luke 21:36). Paul says Jesus is coming to “deliver” us from God’s wrath (1 Thess. 1:10).
Symbolism
There are several prophetic types that seem to affirm the concept of deliverance from Tribulation. Take Enoch for example. He was a prophet to the Gentiles who was raptured out of the world before God poured out His wrath in the great flood of Noah’s time. Enoch appears to be a type of the Gentile Church that will be taken out of the world before God pours out His wrath again. If so, then Noah and his family are a type of the Jewish remnant that will be protected through the Tribulation.
Another Old Testament symbolic type which points toward a pre-Tribulation Rapture is the experience of Lot and his family. They were delivered out of Sodom and Gomorrah before those cities were destroyed.
The Apostle Peter alludes to both of these examples in his second epistle. He states that if God spared Noah and Lot, then He surely “knows how to rescue the godly from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment” (2 Peter 4-9).
Another beautiful prophetic type is to be found in the Jewish wedding traditions of Jesus’s time. After the betrothal, the groom would return to his father’s house to prepare a wedding chamber for his bride. He would return for his bride at an unexpected moment, so the bride had to be ready constantly. When he returned, he would take his bride back to his father’s house to the chamber he had prepared. He and his bride would then be sealed in the chamber for seven days. When they emerged, a great wedding feast would be celebrated.
Likewise, Jesus has returned to Heaven to prepare a place for His bride, the Church. When He returns for His bride, He will take her to His Father’s heavenly home. There He will remain with His bride for seven years (the duration of the Tribulation). The period will end with “the marriage supper of the Lamb” described in Revelation 19. Thus the seven days in the wedding chamber point prophetically to the seven years that Jesus and His bride will remain in Heaven during the Tribulation.
Revelation
Speaking of Revelation, the structure of that book also implies a pre-Tribulation Rapture in a symbolic sense. The first three chapters focus on the Church. Chapter 4 begins with the door of Heaven opening and John being raptured from the isle of Patmos to the throne of God in Heaven. The Church is not mentioned thereafter until Revelation 19:7-9 when it is portrayed as the “bride of Christ” in Heaven with Jesus celebrating the “marriage supper of the Lamb.” At Revelation 19:11 the door of Heaven opens again, and Jesus emerges riding a white horse on His way to earth, followed by His Church (Rev. 19:14).
The rapture of the Apostle John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type of the Rapture of the Church. Note that it is initiated by the cry of a voice that sounds like the blowing of a trumpet (Rev. 4:1). Since the Tribulation does not begin until Revelation 6, the rapture of John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type that points to a pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.
Some counter this argument by pointing out that although the Church is not mentioned in Revelation during that book’s description of the Tribulation, there is constant mention of “saints” (for example, Rev. 13:7). But that term is not used in the Bible exclusively to refer to members of the Church. Daniel uses it to refer to Old Testament believers who lived long before the Church was established (Dan. 7:18). The saints referred to in the book of Revelation are most likely those people who will be saved during the Tribulation, after the Church has been taken out of the world.
Paul’s Assurance
An interesting argument in behalf of the pre-Tribulation timing of the Rapture can be found in 2 Thessalonians. The church at Thessalonica was in a turmoil because someone had written them a letter under Paul’s name stating that they had missed the “gathering to the Lord” and were, in fact, living in “the day of the Lord” (2 Thess. 2:1-2).
Paul attempted to calm them down by reminding them of his teaching that the day of the Lord would not come until after the Antichrist is revealed. He then stated that the Antichrist would not be revealed until a restraining force “is taken out of the way” (2 Thess. 2:3-7).
There has been much speculation as to the identify of this restraining force that Paul refers to. Some have identified it as the Holy Spirit. But it cannot be the Holy Spirit because there will be people saved during the Tribulation, and no one can be saved apart from the testimony of the Spirit (John 16:8-11 and 1 John 5:7).
Others have identified the restrainer as human government. It is true that government was ordained by God to restrain evil (Romans 13:1-4). But the governments of the world are in rebellion against God and His Son (Psalm 2), and they are therefore a contributor to the evil that characterizes the world. Furthermore, the Tribulation will not be characterized by a lack of government. Rather, it will feature the first true worldwide government (Rev. 13:7).
In my opinion that leaves only one other candidate for Paul’s restrainer - and that is the Church. It is the Church that serves as the primary restrainer of evil in the world today as it proclaims the Gospel and stands for righteousness. When the Church fails in this mission, evil multiplies, as Paul graphically points out in 2 Timothy 3:1-5. Paul says that society in the end times will be characterized by chaos and despair because “men will hold to a form of religion but will deny its power.” When the Church is removed from the world, all hell will literally break loose.
Escapism?
The pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture has often been condemned as “escapism.” I think this criticism is unjustified. The Bible itself says that Christians are to “comfort one another” with the thought of the Rapture (1 Thess. 4:18). Is it a comfort to think of the Rapture occurring at the end of the world’s worst period of war instead of at the beginning?
Regardless of when the Rapture actually occurs, we need to keep in mind that the Bible teaches that societal conditions are going to grow increasingly worse the closer we get to the Lord’s return. That means Christians will suffer tribulation whether or not they go into the Great Tribulation. And that means all of us had better be preparing ourselves for unprecedented suffering and spiritual warfare.
If you are a Christian, you can do that on a daily basis by putting on “the full armor of God” (Eph. 6:13), praying at all times in the Spirit that you will be able to stand firm against the attacks of Satan (Eph. 6:14-18).
If you are not a Christian, your only hope is to reach out in faith and receive the free gift of God’s salvation which He has provided through His Son, Jesus (John 3:16).
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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Adv.Christian
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Good morning my brothers and sisters. I wanted to ask everybody a favor. Allow me to start by giving you readers digest version of what I believe the Word of God to say concerning Rapture, 2nd Resurrection and the state of man after death. 1st- I can not find any consistent teaching of post, pre or mid tribulation Rapture of the Church, in fact, I find the Word of God to seemingly teach the opposite to that unless the use of insinuation and assumption is involved. 2nd- Concerning the 2nd resurrection; it seems to me that it is in simplicity the return of Jesus Christ at which time all mankind will be raised either to salvation or unto damnation. 3rd- And lastly the state of man after death is that of sleep until the return of Christ on the final day at which time either you have salvation or you are destroyed eternally. The fate of those which are unsaved is eternal destruction (the 2nd death) and not that of being placed in an eternal fire and torment.
Now that being said please allow me to ask my favor of everybody. While I stress that above is a limited over view of what I find; I wrote this only to give everbody a back ground of where I am currently and what I currently believe. What I would like to ask of everybody is for your assistance in helping me with my understanding of the doctrine of the rapture of the church by using scripture to help me to follow the teaching and belief in it. Please understand I admire and respect the knowledge and opinions of all members of this forum; but I would like to ask that any answers and opinions you decide to reply with you also include the scriptures on which the replies are based.
I am not attempting to start an argument over this topic, in fact quite the opposite. My prayer and desire is that you all can assist me in my growth and understanding of God’s Word. I desire to understand the views of rapture and exactly how this belief is derived in order to know if my understanding is in fact incorrect or flawed. Please understand I do not wish to attempt to delve into what or why I hold the beliefs I hold I do not desire to debate the issue I only hope to come to a clearer understanding of this subject and with with everybody’s assistance and God's guidence with this I am confident I will. I thank you in advance for your help and as always my love to all and May God bless.
Born Again please note the use of a capital G indicating the reference to the God of Israel.
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A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
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