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Topic: A look at 2 Thessalonians?
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helpforhomeschoolers
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No trying to be convenient BA. That day is not going to be except that 1. what lets is taken away; the man is revealed... so what is that day?
If that day is the day of our (bride)redemption then what is going to be taken away? What is holding down now?
If that day is the day of HIS presence in the earth then we have no trouble.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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BORN AGAIN
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Does it not appear as if v.3 and vv.7-8 contradict each other? So then you (HFHS) want vv.7-8 to have precedence over v.3? How conve-e-e-nient.
I did look at the Greek yesterday and I have the Greek book here but it is in the car; I will get it out on my break and write the Greek for vv.7-8.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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helpforhomeschoolers
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But verse 7 & 8 tell us that this is not so... So we must then revisit v 2-3.
There is a clear order established in 7-8. What ever the meaning of V 2 -3; it cannot contradict the order of 7-8.
She stamps her feet cause she wants to not worry about the rapture and desires to drag BA back look at what is being revealed when ever it is revealed and the "working of Delusion" and the things that follow, which are instruction for the people of God ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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sister helpf... says to BA quote:
you lost me on the man of sin revealed before that which lets is removed, though.
If the man of sin has to be revealed before we go anywhere, which seems implied by v.2-3 (paraphrased) "as though the day of Christ had already happened, but that man of sin must be revealed first", right?
So therefore, if, as you say, the Holy Spirit in us is "what lets" or "what hinders" the coming on the scene of the man of sin, since v.3 says that we will still be here to "see the man of sin be revealed first" (v.3), and therefore "he who lets", namely us, will still be here to "see the man of sin be revealed". Get it?
2 Thessalonians 2
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
So if we go up at the "day of Christ" and "our gathering is then unto Him", Paul says that the man of sin must be revealed on earth BEFORE the day of Christ arrives to take us somewhere.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Yes the delusion could happen in a day I suppose.. you lost me on the man of sin revealed before that which lets is removed though. I dont see how you get there...
7 for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now will hinder —till he may be out of the way,
8 and then shall be revealed the Lawless One,
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Let's see if I can get anything else out of it, HFHS, in the KJV:
2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now you know what withholds, that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way.
HFHS, you currently think v.7 means the “Holy Spirit inside believers” who are “taken out of the way in a rapture 7 years ahead of the actual coming, right?
But v.8 has to happen first right? Because v.3 below says:
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
HFHS[/b]So the man of sin needs to be revealed first before a rapture can happen, right? Because v.3 says so, and v.2 below says:
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
So the man of sin must first be revealed BEFORE we go anywhere? Do you agree with that, HFHS?
So the following v.8 has to happen BEFORE we go anywhere, right?
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
HFHS, the strong delusion is probably what the man of sin, the son of perdition, the Wicked one does.
So I do have to admit that the Wicked one is going to need some time to show people some stuff first, and that presumably could not happen in just one day?
ENOUGH FOR NOW—to be continued
BORN AGAIN
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helpforhomeschoolers
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BA: I really did not want this thread to be about the rapture so much as about this particular portion of this verse that I posted. I wanted to try and view this leaving out the pictures in our minds that we have about a rapture or even not rapture and just look at this verse itself, but I also dont want to ignore your point above.
If I speak only of personal opinion, I would say to you that there are for me too many other things in the scriptures that tell me that the church will be out of her before Daniel's 70th week, which I believe is yet to come. My view of the rapture is not based in this verse, and I cant deny the things it is based on so I cant go there at this point.
But if I look only at this text here is what I see with regard to your question or your point: Again I will use the literal Greek version here because for me it is more clear:
quote:
2 Thessalonians 2:1 ¶ And we ask you, brethren, in regard to the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him,
(When I read this I see that Paul is addressing 2 heresies.
- 1.)That Christ has come "the presence of the Lord"
and
[LIST] 2.) that have been left "our gathering together with him'.
I have read that there many come claiming to be Christ. I have a list of those somewhere. I dont know if any were in the 1st century. I will try to find the list.
quote:
2 that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;
It appears that the Thessalonians have received letters that were falsely said to be from the Apostles -
Now the next part interesting; the letters that came were written as that "the day of Christ" had come. What is " the day of Christ"?
This phrase is found 3 other places in scripture:
Philippians 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
Philippians 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
I believe that for the church (and all these verses speak to the Church/Bride of Christ) that this is the day we are redeemed from this body. This is the day unto which we are sealed:
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
I want to look at this more in another thread, but for now and for this discussion that seems to fit.
quote:
3 ¶ let not any one deceive you in any manner, because—if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed—the son of the destruction, who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God—the day doth not come.
Here it clear to me that these things must occure prior to our being redeemed from these bodies:
1. The Falling away
2. The man of sin revealed
3. His sitting himself down in the sactuary, showing himself off that he is God
quote:
5 Do ye not remember that, being yet with you, these things I said to you?
Paul I believe speaks here of what he said to them that is recorded in 1 Thessalonians.
quote:
6 and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time,
I personally believe that this is the Holy Spirit IN the born again believer.... bride/church.
7 for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now will hinder —till he may be out of the way,
quote:
The "gathering together unto Him" is mentioned in the same verse as the "coming" of the Lord. Does that mean that "the gathering together unto Him" occurs when He "comes" or "arrives" or "is present"?
And, arrives where? Is present where? In the land of Israel to take possession of the holy oblation of land reserved for the Prince?
To me the linking of the "coming" of the Lord and our "gathering together unto Him" in the same verse indicated co-temporaneousness, not something separed by 7 years.
So, for me, in conclusion, I cant go here to say that these two words or phrases "coming/Presence" and "gathering together" are joined or separated by time. I dont think that this text in and of itself tell us either way. I think that if we look at this text alone, we can see that Paul addresses 2 issues.
1. Has the day of Christ the day that we are supposed to be changed if we are not already dead come?
2. Is he here now? - Were we left - not redeemed?
The proximity or distance between these two situations is not given in this text either way. In my opinon of course... subject to have perhaps missed something?
What I dont want to do in this is get into faulty logic. The only thing that I think that we can conclude here is that if the day of Christ had come, they would have been changed. We can not infer that He would also be here because we are not given the information in this text to know the time and space between their being changed and HIS being present in the earth.
Your thoughts? - and your thoughts on the rest of the original text and my questions/
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Well, I felt like your listing of the use of this word in scripture confirms my understanding of it that it is presence as in the presentation of oneself... the presenting of ones person, the coming onto the scene or into being.
The spirit of That Wicked, or the Lawless one is with us now, has been from the time of Paul he ways the spirit of antichrist is come.
This is speaking of his presenting himself to the people on earth... perhaps but it says:
his presence in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness which is according to the workings of the adversary.
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2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming 3952 of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto Him.
The "gathering together unto Him" is mentioned in the same verse as the "coming" of the Lord. Does that mean that "the gathering together unto Him" occurs when He "comes" or "arrives" or "is present"?
And, arrives where? Is present where? In the land of Israel to take possession of the holy oblation of land reserved for the Prince?
To me the linking of the "coming" of the Lord and our "gathering together unto Him" in the same verse indicated co-temporaneousness, not something separed by 7 years.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Just a note BA; I used the literal Greek version... so his coming should show the underlying word that is 3952 parousia parousia par-oo-see’-ah
from the present participle of 3918; TDNT-5:858,791; n f
AV-coming 22, presence 2; 24
1) presence
2) the coming, arrival, advent
2a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God Greek for presence.
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I mean, that dude P. packed something serious into every PHRASE. Are they related? Are they separate issues and thoughts? I must confess that I don't know that much about the phrases as used?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Yes, BA there is some very heavy duty thought given to us by Paul, to be seen in this scripture that is almost ignored by today's teachings on this subject. I am going to take some time to digest your post above and will get back to you; but it pleased me to see tht you do see the depth of information or better understanding that is in this. It is related strongly for me to some other things I have been studying and so I am so looking forward to kind of sifting through it together.
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wow, some great and serious questions, and I have idea what the answer is for most of them right off-hand. :::::::
But, what, for instance does this word "presence" mean:
2 Thessalonians 2:8
and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence,
9 him, whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved,
I mean, Paul was talking some stuff in these paragraphs, wasn't he, now that you have pointed that out to me, HFHS? It's interesting how for years we can casually read over stuff and just say, "oh, that was interesting" and keep right on reading without undertanding what it said.
But I believe the Bible works that way; as layer upon layer of the Bible is absorbed into one's spirit and mind and heart, it's like a carpet or a puzzle, the picture becomes more detailed and more seen as a whole.
So, "presence", I just looked it up, but that is not the KJV version;; the KJV version is:
2 Thessalonians 2:8 {KJV}
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:9
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.
In verse 8, the "coming" or "parousia" is the Lord's "coming" or "parousia". But is it also the devil's "coming" or "parousia" in verse 9?
2Thessalonians 2:8
And 2532 then 5119 shall 601 0 that Wicked 459 be revealed 601 , whom 3739 the Lord 2962 shall consume 355 with the spirit 4151 of his 846 mouth 4750, and 2532 shall destroy 2673 with the brightness 2015 of his 846 coming 3952;
2Thessalonians 2:9
[Even him], whose 3739 coming 3952 is 2076 after 2596 the working 1753 of Satan 4567 with 1722 all 3956 power 1411 and 2532 signs 4592 and 2532 lying 5579 wonders 5059.
So Satan will also be making his "coming" and his "parousia" to take posssession of the earth at that time? He will try to take the holy oblation by Jerusalem that is reserved for who will be the Prince.
parousia (Strong's 3952) occurs 24 times in 24 verses:
1) presence
2) the coming, arrival, advent
KJV Translation Count — Total: 24
AV - coming 22 times, presence 2; 24
Mat 24:3 And 1161 as he 846 sat 2521 upon 1909 the mount 3735 of Olives 1636, the disciples 3101 came 4334 unto him 846 privately 2596 2398, saying 3004 , Tell 2036 us 2254, when 4219 shall 2071 0 these things 5023 be 2071 ? and 2532 what 5101 [shall be] the sign 4592 of thy 4674 coming 3952, and 2532 of the end 4930 of the world 165?
Mat 24:27 For 1063 as 5618 the lightning 796 cometh 1831 out of 575 the east 395, and 2532 shineth 5316 even unto 2193 the west 1424; so 3779 shall 2071 0 also 2532 the coming 3952 of the Son 5207 of man 444 be 2071 .
Mat 24:37 But 1161 as 5618 the days 2250 of Noe 3575 [were], so 3779 shall 2071 0 also 2532 the coming 3952 of the Son 5207 of man 444 be 2071.
Mat 24:39 And 2532 knew 1097 not 3756 until 2193 the flood 2627 came 2064, and 2532 took 142 0 them all 537 away 142; so 3779 shall 2071 0 also 2532 the coming 3952 of the Son 5207 of man 444 be 2071.
1Cr 15:23 But 1161 every man 1538 in 1722 his own 2398 order 5001: Christ 5547 the firstfruits 536; afterward 1899 they that are 3588 Christ's 5547 at 1722 his 846 coming 3952.
1Cr 16:17 1161 I am glad 5463 of 1909 the coming 3952 of Stephanas 4734 and 2532 Fortunatus 5415 and 2532 Achaicus 883: for that 3754 which was lacking 5303 on your part 5216 they 3778 have supplied 378.
Hey, even Sephanas has a "coming" or "parousia". Bring it down to earth, why don't they?
2Cr 7:6 Nevertheless 235 God 2316, that comforteth 3870 those that are cast down 5011, comforted 3870 us 2248 by 1722 the coming 3952 of Titus 5103;
Hey, Titus even has a "coming" or "parousia".
2Cr 7:7 And 1161 not 3756 by 1722 his 846 coming 3952 only 3440, but 235 2532 by 1722 the consolation 3874 wherewith 3739 he was comforted 3870 in 1909 you 5213, when he told 312 us 2254 your 5216 earnest desire 1972, your 5216 mourning 3602, your 5216 fervent mind 2205 toward 5228 me 1700; so 5620 that I 3165 rejoiced 5463 the more 3123.
2Cr 10:10 For 3754 [his] letters 1992 3303, say they 5346 , [are] weighty 926 and 2532 powerful 2478; but 1161 [his] bodily 4983 presence 3952 [is] weak 772, and 2532 [his] speech 3056 contemptible 1848.
Phl 1:26 That 2443 your 5216 rejoicing 2745 may be more abundant 4052 in 1722 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547 for 1722 me 1698 by 1223 my 1699 coming 3952 to 4314 you 5209 again 3825.
Phl 2:12 Wherefore 5620, my 3450 beloved 27, as 2531 ye have 5219 0 always 3842 obeyed 5219 , not 3361 as 5613 in 1722 my 3450 presence 3952 only 3440, but 235 now 3568 much 4183 more 3123 in 1722 my 3450 absence 666, work out 2716 your own 1438 salvation 4991 with 3326 fear 5401 and 2532 trembling 5156.
1Th 2:19 For 1063 what 5101 [is] our 2257 hope 1680, or 2228 joy 5479, or 2228 crown 4735 of rejoicing 2746? 2228 [Are] not 3780 even 2532 ye 5210 in the presence 1715 of our 2257 Lord 2962 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547 at 1722 his 846 coming 3952?
1Th 3:13 To the end 1519 he may stablish 4741 your 5216 hearts 2588 unblameable 273 in 1722 holiness 42 before 1715 God 2316, even 2532 our 2257 Father 3962, at 1722 the coming 3952 of our 2257 Lord 2962 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547 with 3326 all 3956 his 846 saints 40.
1Th 4:15 For 1063 this 5124 we say 3004 unto you 5213 by 1722 the word 3056 of the Lord 2962, that 3754 we 2249 which 3588 are alive 2198 [and] remain 4035 unto 1519 the coming 3952 of the Lord 2962 shall 5348 0 not 3364 prevent 5348 them which 3588 are asleep 2837 .
1Th 5:23 And 1161 the very 846 God 2316 of peace 1515 sanctify 37 you 5209 wholly 3651; and 2532 [I pray God] your 5216 whole 3648 spirit 4151 and 2532 soul 5590 and 2532 body 4983 be preserved 5083 blameless 274 unto 1722 the coming 3952 of our 2257 Lord 2962 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547.
2Th 2:1 Now 1161 we beseech 2065 you 5209, brethren 80, by 5228 the coming 3952 of our 2257 Lord 2962 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:8 And 2532 then 5119 shall 601 0 that Wicked 459 be revealed 601, whom 3739 the Lord 2962 shall consume 355 with the spirit 4151 of his 846 mouth 4750, and 2532 shall destroy 2673 with the brightness 2015 of his 846 coming 3952:
2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose 3739 coming 3952 is 2076 after 2596 the working 1753 of Satan 4567 with 1722 all 3956 power 1411 and 2532 signs 4592 and 2532 lying 5579 wonders 5059,
Jam 5:7 Be patient 3114 therefore 3767, brethren 80, unto 2193 the coming 3952 of the Lord 2962. Behold 2400 , the husbandman 1092 waiteth 1551 for the precious 5093 fruit 2590 of the earth 1093, and hath long patience 3114 for 1909 it 846, until 2193 302 he receive 2983 the early 4406 and 2532 latter 3797 rain 5205.
Jam 5:8 Be 3114 0 ye 5210 also 2532 patient 3114 ; stablish 4741 your 5216 hearts 2588: for 3754 the coming 3952 of the Lord 2962 draweth nigh 1448.
2Pe 1:16 For 1063 we have 1811 0 not 3756 followed 1811 cunningly devised 4679 fables 3454, when we made known 1107 unto you 5213 the power 1411 and 2532 coming 3952 of our 2257 Lord 2962 Jesus 2424 Christ 5547, but 235 were 1096 eyewitnesses 2030 of his 1565 majesty 3168.
2Pe 3:4 And 2532 saying 3004 , Where 4226 is 2076 the promise 1860 of his 846 coming 3952? for 1063 since 575 3739 the fathers 3962 fell asleep 2837, all things 3956 continue 3779 1265 as [they were] from 575 the beginning 746 of the creation 2937.
2Pe 3:12 Looking for 4328 and 2532 hasting 4692 unto the coming 3952 of the day 2250 of God 2316, wherein 1223 3739 the heavens 3772 being on fire 4448 shall be dissolved 3089 , and 2532 the elements 4747 shall melt 5080 with fervent heat 2741?
1Jo 2:28 And 2532 now 3568, little children 5040, abide 3306 in 1722 him 846; that 2443, when 3752 he shall appear 5319, we may have 2192 confidence 3954, and 2532 not 3361 be ashamed 153 before 575 him 846 at 1722 his 846 coming 3952.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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helpforhomeschoolers
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This scripture came up in another thread too and I was talking just today about this scripture with a firend and I wondered if we could look at it together. If we were to not think about the visions in our head and the teachings on this subject in the world about what this is going to look like and just study on the scripture what truths would we see? No matter what our views on rapture or no rapture or painted pictrues of the events of the end times what does this scripture reveal to us?
2 Thessalonians 2:8 and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence,
9 him, whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved,
I want to pull out a phrase for a moment because the phrase modifies "presence" and we know his presence is according to the working of the adversary... but HIS presence in what? The earth? The universe? Rome or Jerusalem? What?
quote:
9 him, whose presence in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved,
11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
Who is God sending a working delusion?
Why is God sending them a working of delusion?
What is a working of delusion?
12 that they may be judged—all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness.
Why is it necessary for them to believe a lie to be judged?
13 ¶ And we—we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth,
Why does Paul list 3 things that we are chosen for ... 1.) Salvation 2.) Sanctification of the Spirit 3.) belief of the truth ?
What is the "sanctification of the SPirit?
Is that related to the "belief of the truth?"
What is truth?
14 to which He did call you through our good news, to the acquiring of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ;
15 so, then, brethren, stand ye fast, and hold the deliverances that ye were taught, whether through word, whether through our letter;
Why does Paul say hold onto the "deliverences you were taught"?
What are those deliverences that Paul taught in his Epistles and in person?
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