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Author
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Topic: All Pieces Fit Together
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Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817
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posted
ST I think if you read the rest of my post, you will get a better understanding of what I was saying. However in reality, Betty and I don't deny Christ's divinity so what causes us to not be able to unite? Nothing really.
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
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posted
I'm short on time, but I just read this in Carmela's reply and I wanted to address this:
quote:
If you said Jesus isn't divine (I know you are not saying that) and I say He is, why couldn't we work together in spite of the difference? We are not asking each other to change, we are working at building the Kingdom of God.
This is a Perfect Example of a time when there Can Not be Unity. To say that Jesus is not divine is to Deny him and who He is. This is what the Apostle Paul meant when he said:
quote:
Romans 16: 17Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
If you ‘know’ that someone claims that Jesus is Not Divine, then they must have brought their false doctrine to you in some form, otherwise you would not know this… Paul says avoid them. Therefore you Can Not “Unite” with them or work together with them. Obviously you would Not be working to build the Kingdom of God if you’re working with one who denies Christ.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Carmela
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Member # 4817
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posted
Thanks so much for clarifying. I see what you are saying now.
quote:
The sword is the WORD - the two edged sword that is a discerner of the hearts and intents of men. I think that the scripture best answers this question.
Is it our Job to bring the sword?
Yes, I agree. So my next question is why can't the Word and Unity go hand in hand?
quote:
I believe that those are commands to all of us; additionally, I believe that the church is the salt of the earth that is preserving the word in the earth. but I also believe that some are given specific vocations in the body that are teaching vocations or evangelizing vocations or minstering vocations that requires us to speak the word; the word is the sword.
I agree, we are all called to teach. Here is my point I was trying to make, I don't say this rudely so I hope it doesn't come across that way. If we are all called to teach, doesn't teaching coming first by example? People follow our example more than they follow our words. I will finish this a bit later.
quote:
quote:
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If this is the case then Jesus shouldn't have taught us that we are to have unity with our bretheren
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
(KJV)
I dobn't see a sword there. (ME and my typos ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) )
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The sword of the Spirit can never be absent the working of the Spirit that I can see. Paul indeed taught that we are to seek unity with our brothers, but that unity can only be acheived when we are united in truth. So we must seek truth. That is the point of all that I have posted on this subject. If we with all our beiong seek truth, we will find it and HIm and Unity OF the Spirit.
I agree.
quote:
The word itself is the sword that divides, because it divides within us between our flesh and the Spirit and our minds and also it will divide among us where there is light and darkness, truth and error; thoughts and intents of the flesh and the Spirit etc..
quote:
A believer also can have carnality; when we walk in the flesh; believe the enemy's lies; hold onto our own pride; live in rebellion... what ever... we will have division - an example is in the corinthian church. All were saved... all had gifts of the spirit that evidenced this and yet there was great division because of their carnality, because they wanted to esteem one teacher over another, because they wanted to esteem one gift over another. Where ever there is carnality and Spirit in the same place there will be division. Because Jesus brought the Sword of the Spirit that is truth - As He could do nothing less being himself TRUTH and the WORD, he brought division even in households.
Ok, now I will finish my above sentence. Yes, a believer can be carnal. So this is where binding together in unity helps. Because they will not see the error of their ways unless we are there to show them by example, by the Word, and by loving them. Many Christians are carnal because they haven't had anyone to guide them into understanding what a relationship with Jesus is really all about. So, they stumble around blindly. Just because some Christians have a better understanding of the Word of God, doesn't mean the carnal Christians should be left out in the cold because of their lack of knowledge. Of course, this is also a good time to weed out the Christians thats say Lord Lord and He will say I never know you. We will see as we draw closer together which of us are in the position to teach and guide others, which of us are baby Christians, which of us are really just poison in the church. As we join in unity and teach others, then we as a church will grow stronger in unity and in stature. Plus, just because some know the bible better than others, doesn't mean they will never be in the position of needing to be put back in line sometimes since we all fall short.
We are all equal, whether we know God's word a little better than others, or whether we don't know much of it at all for one reason or another. Maybe someone can't read, or maybe they are new Christians, or maybe they were taught to go to church and they got no further understanding....we are all still equal. Just some of us need to disciple others and not worry about the ones that are preaching falsely because our effortsand focus should be on the church and the people around us.
quote:
I think that Jesus demonstrated that you can be among the heathen and not be brought down. Being saved means I am at peace even in the middle of a war zone; He lives this life here in me and I my life is hid... up there in HIM, if that is the case there is nothing that can bring me down.
I was just reading about a preacher that thought this. He fell, lost his ministry and now struggles in the job he has. We must always be careful and keep our guard up because it's easy to get into the wrong frame of thinking and mess up before we even knew what happened.
quote:
I cant give any more to this subject than I have given. My human ability to communicate what is known in my heart limits me and God gives to us understanding according to HIS timing not ours. So I just have to leave it there. If you want to ask me something specific I will answer my thoughts, but past that I have nothing more to give to this subject that will be of any value or will be received or understood any more than I have already spoken.
HEHE! I know how you feel. Sometimes it seems like we are just spinning our wheels, doesn't it? Hopefully you will get a better understanding of where I'm coming from now also.
I do have a better understanding of what you are saying though. Sometimes with a post here and a post there, and then being on the go all of the time and getting up and down from the computer, on my end, it may cloud what I'm reading sometimes so I try to take more time now when reading.
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
So what then because you and I both know that the scripture says that we are to endeavor to keep the UNITY of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
We have to look at our expectations:
This wont bring peace on earth but it will bring peace in the church.
We dont experience peace in the church for a number of reasons....some of which are in my opinion:
1. The church is not separate from the world though in the world. We are supposed to be separate from the world though in the world.
2. We do not apply church discipline as taught in the scriptures. We dont keep sin out of the church; we overlook when we should rebuke and reprove; we ignore when we should contend; we dont see ourselves as uinited in such a way that what happens to one affects us all negatively or positively.
3. We do not build the church on the apostolic foundation. We dont teach the oracles of God that were known to the Jews and taught to the first century believers;
4. We do not make disciples that those in the church know universally what it is that Jesus commanded
5. We dont understand that divisions must come that those who are approved are manifest. We see that the solution is not the manifestation of the approved that the not approved are separated from the Body that they learn not to blaspheme, we instead seek to stop division our way which is to ignore the untruth that divides and come together under false unity. It is so classic of an age old problem of man wanting to serve God his way and not God's way.
What if when for example 25 years ago in the Lutheran Church when divisions began to rear their ugly head about the inerrancy of the scripture, the church would have said NO! We know that those who are approved of God are those that will stand on the Truth being truth period. Is it possible that today the Lutheran church would not be oppenly and blatantly accepting practicing homosexuality as an acceptable behavior in the name of love?
The scripture clearly calls homosexuality an abomination and it is an abomination even if it is between two monogomous people who have been faithful to each other for 40 years and believe they love each other.
But the Lutheran church tried to deal with divisiion man's way instead of God's way which the scripture clearly says must come and comes for the purpose of manifesting the approved.
There is never ever ever gonna be unity of the spirit in the bond of peace among brethren in the church until there is a realization that Christ is not united and cannot be united with sin and it does not matter if that sin is the sin of rebellion innocently disquised a desire for unity or whether the sin is obvious and blatant like practicing homosexuality.
If we are not willing to remove what is dividing from the body then the body will be divided and not united. 25 years ago in the Lutheran church what was dividing was a cavalier attitude about the word. I dont see that it is so different today.
There must be division before there can be unity. This is a principle of God that is shown through out the scripture and even in nature.
The cells in our human body must divide before a new creature is formed. Adam's flesh had to be divided that Eve could be formed and given back to him to be united with HIM; Christ had to be divided from life that the Bride could be united to HIM; we must be divided one day from this body where sin lives that we can be united with HIM in heaven where we shall forever be with HIM. The Israelites had to be divided from the Egyptians that they could enter covenant with God. Leaven must be divided from the lump if the whole lump is not to be leavened.
Division is necessary that unity can occur.
2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
WOW! This was So Well Said SIS! AMEN and AMEN!
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
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posted
Hi Carmela:
I dont think that I can say anything here that I have not already said, but I will try to address your questions/comments.
quote:
Ok, I have a question. If Jesus didn't come to bring peace but a sword, does that mean it's also your job to bring a sword?
The sword is the WORD - the two edged sword that is a discerner of the hearts and intents of men. I think that the scripture best answers this question.
Is it our Job to bring the sword?
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
I believe that those are commands to all of us; additionally, I believe that the church is the salt of the earth that is preserving the word in the earth. but I also believe that some are given specific vocations in the body that are teaching vocations or evangelizing vocations or minstering vocations that requires us to speak the word; the word is the sword.
quote:
If this is the case then Jesus shouldn't have taught us that we are to have unity with our bretheren
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
(KJV)
I dobn't see a sword there.
The sword of the Spirit can never be absent the working of the Spirit that I can see. Paul indeed taught that we are to seek unity with our brothers, but that unity can only be acheived when we are united in truth. So we must seek truth. That is the point of all that I have posted on this subject. If we with all our beiong seek truth, we will find it and HIm and Unity OF the Spirit.
The word itself is the sword that divides, because it divides within us between our flesh and the Spirit and our minds and also it will divide among us where there is light and darkness, truth and error; thoughts and intents of the flesh and the Spirit etc..
quote:
If you actually take the scripture that you are quoting HFHS into it's full context instead of just that small portion, Jesus is actually saying this:
Matt 10:32-36
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
(KJV)
Jesus didn't just come to bring peace, He came out of obedience to the Father who sent Him. However, He came to teach people to walk according to the Father's ways. The scripture you quote is talking about how a Christian will have to go against the non-believer in order to follow Christ. Why is this? It's because His ways or not the world's ways and we can no longer be Christians following God's ways and at the same time live in the world. You are taking this WAYYYYYYYYYY out of context because there is nothing in here about disunity. It's about becoming a believer and making a sacrifice that could include having to give up family and friends. This is because the non-believer can bring us down.
I am well aware the context of this scripture; why indeed would believing in HIM cause division and enemy in a man's own household? Because the believer would have the truth and the unbeliever error.
A believer also can have carnality; when we walk in the flesh; believe the enemy's lies; hold onto our own pride; live in rebellion... what ever... we will have division - an example is in the corinthian church. All were saved... all had gifts of the spirit that evidenced this and yet there was great division because of their carnality, because they wanted to esteem one teacher over another, because they wanted to esteem one gift over another. Where ever there is carnality and Spirit in the same place there will be division. Because Jesus brought the Sword of the Spirit that is truth - As He could do nothing less being himself TRUTH and the WORD, he brought division even in households.
I do not think that I take the scripture out of context at all. And I dont think that we are to sacrifice our familial relationships because the unbeliever will bring us down.
I think that Jesus demonstrated that you can be among the heathen and not be brought down. Being saved means I am at peace even in the middle of a war zone; He lives this life here in me and I my life is hid... up there in HIM, if that is the case there is nothing that can bring me down.
I do think that we are called to separate from sin because sin will infect the holy, but this is another story.
Jesus said he came to bring the sword which is the two edged sword of the Spirit of Almighty God it is the WORD of God and that the Word of God would cause division and it will and it does and it will continue to do so where ever it is found in the same space as that which opposes it. Be that between a believer and a non believer or a carnal Christian and a mature one; or in a Christian that is walking in the Spirit and one that is walking in the flesh, or in our own persons where the mind of the flesh is at war with the mind of the spirit and the mind of the person has not had his mind renewed by the washing of the word.
You simply cannot unite the WORD that is Truth with what is not truth... they cannot be combined; they can only appear to be combined in the mind of one who lacks understanding.
Even in ourselves in simple matters if we meditate on the word our lack of understanding will cause division.
If I dont understand that death to the heathen is merciful just and loving on the part of God that allows it - I war in my own mind with God being loving a good God. We see this all the time in believers and non believers - the division comes because we lack the WHOLE truth.
I cant give any more to this subject than I have given. My human ability to communicate what is known in my heart limits me and God gives to us understanding according to HIS timing not ours. So I just have to leave it there. If you want to ask me something specific I will answer my thoughts, but past that I have nothing more to give to this subject that will be of any value or will be received or understood any more than I have already spoken.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carmela:
Ok, I have a question. If Jesus didn't come to bring peace but a sword, does that mean it's also your job to bring a sword? If this is the case then Jesus shouldn't have taught us that we are to have unity with our bretheren.
Eph 4:3
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
(KJV)
I dobn't see a sword there.
If you actually take the scripture that you are quoting HFHS into it's full context instead of just that small portion, Jesus is actually saying this:
Matt 10:32-36
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
(KJV)
Jesus didn't just come to bring peace, He came out of obedience to the Father who sent Him. However, He came to teach people to walk according to the Father's ways. The scripture you quote is talking about how a Christian will have to go against the non-believer in order to follow Christ. Why is this? It's because His ways or not the world's ways and we can no longer be Christians following God's ways and at the same time live in the world. You are taking this WAYYYYYYYYYY out of context because there is nothing in here about disunity. It's about becoming a believer and making a sacrifice that could include having to give up family and friends. This is because the non-believer can bring us down.
I am theSword,
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That is all.....
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Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817
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posted
I'm just now catching up on these posts. Thank you BA for clarifying what I was saying. You are totally right.
Betty, I certainly wouldn't go to a Mormon church and say ok guys I want to fit in here with you. However, I wouldn't sit there and while someone is talking start chiming in true doctrine either. What I would do is go to the leader of the church and try to witness to them. If they don't receive it, I leave but I can still be civil to them and pray for them and even reach out to some of them. I wouldn't condemn them, I would teach them because it's God's job to do the condemning.
However, You and I are Christians and we both have a few different beliefs, right? Well, when you get down to the deep doctrinal issues, we usually agree. It's more of the petty things we disagree on like whether someone should go around running other ministries down. That isn't something that will get us into heaven. So, you and I could unite and work together as Christians. We are not changing our doctrinal beliefs, we are working together. If you said Jesus isn't divine (I know you are not saying that) and I say He is, why couldn't we work together in spite of the difference? We are not asking each other to change, we are working at building the Kingdom of God. Jesus looks at the heart of man, our job is to unite and work together instead of arguing all of the time and giving non-believers more of a reason to not want to follow Christianity. I certainly wouldn't want to become a Christian if I saw so much arguing going on between them before I was saved. Although Jesus'divinity is important to salvation, it shouldn't keep Christians segregated because He is the only Judge. What He says is all that matters in the end.
Jesus was with the sinners a lot, however we are not perfect like He is so we need each other so we don't fall. We need to hold each other accountable, encourage each other (since being a Christian can mean persecution sometimes), pray for each other and so on.
If you came to me and said God told you.......some far fetched thing you (not you personally) could be believing, then I certainly wouldn't run away and say YOU SINNER!!! After all, I'm a sinner also. I would love you, show you the word, pray for you, and try to be there for you so that you don't end up living in this sin and turning from God in the end.
For these reasons, Christians shouldn't be arguing with each other. We should be united, building each other up, encouraging, praying...if you look at the prophets like Jeremiah, they WEAPED for their people. We should be willing to do the same. We should weap for each other, not persecute each other. Jeremiah, Paul and the others never spent wasted time writing to people that they are not good enough. Look at Paul's writings. First, he tells the people what they are doing right, then he tells them where they need improvement, then he builds them up again, he praises them. He knew they had good intentions, they just needed a little encouragement and direction.
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www.pinecrest.org
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Carmela
Advanced Member
Member # 4817
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posted
Ok, I have a question. If Jesus didn't come to bring peace but a sword, does that mean it's also your job to bring a sword? If this is the case then Jesus shouldn't have taught us that we are to have unity with our bretheren.
Eph 4:3
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
(KJV)
I dobn't see a sword there.
If you actually take the scripture that you are quoting HFHS into it's full context instead of just that small portion, Jesus is actually saying this:
Matt 10:32-36
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
(KJV)
Jesus didn't just come to bring peace, He came out of obedience to the Father who sent Him. However, He came to teach people to walk according to the Father's ways. The scripture you quote is talking about how a Christian will have to go against the non-believer in order to follow Christ. Why is this? It's because His ways or not the world's ways and we can no longer be Christians following God's ways and at the same time live in the world. You are taking this WAYYYYYYYYYY out of context because there is nothing in here about disunity. It's about becoming a believer and making a sacrifice that could include having to give up family and friends. This is because the non-believer can bring us down.
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www.pinecrest.org
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
quote:
HFHS you are arguing against me when I say we can have peace, and then you say we can have peace?
I was not arguing against you.
You said this: quote:
You are not going to tell me that Jesus didn't come to earth to bring peace.
That is a double negative statement that means....
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
That is a direct quote from Jesus that says he did not come to bring peace.
Jesus came to bring peace to earth!
I pointed out that this is what the scripture says:
Your statement is false when set against the scripture.
So what then because you and I both know that the scripture says that we are to endeavor to keep the UNITY of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
We have to look at our expectations:
This wont bring peace on earth but it will bring peace in the church.
We dont experience peace in the church for a number of reasons....some of which are in my opinion:
1. The church is not separate from the world though in the world. We are supposed to be separate from the world though in the world.
2. We do not apply church discipline as taught in the scriptures. We dont keep sin out of the church; we overlook when we should rebuke and reprove; we ignore when we should contend; we dont see ourselves as uinited in such a way that what happens to one affects us all negatively or positively.
3. We do not build the church on the apostolic foundation. We dont teach the oracles of God that were known to the Jews and taught to the first century believers;
4. We do not make disciples that those in the church know universally what it is that Jesus commanded
5. We dont understand that divisions must come that those who are approved are manifest. We see that the solution is not the manifestation of the approved that the not approved are separated from the Body that they learn not to blaspheme, we instead seek to stop division our way which is to ignore the untruth that divides and come together under false unity. It is so classic of an age old problem of man wanting to serve God his way and not God's way.
What if when for example 25 years ago in the Lutheran Church when divisions began to rear their ugly head about the inerrancy of the scripture, the church would have said NO! We know that those who are approved of God are those that will stand on the Truth being truth period. Is it possible that today the Lutheran church would not be oppenly and blatantly accepting practicing homosexuality as an acceptable behavior in the name of love?
The scripture clearly calls homosexuality an abomination and it is an abomination even if it is between two monogomous people who have been faithful to each other for 40 years and believe they love each other.
But the Lutheran church tried to deal with divisiion man's way instead of God's way which the scripture clearly says must come and comes for the purpose of manifesting the approved.
There is never ever ever gonna be unity of the spirit in the bond of peace among brethren in the church until there is a realization that Christ is not united and cannot be united with sin and it does not matter if that sin is the sin of rebellion innocently disquised a desire for unity or whether the sin is obvious and blatant like practicing homosexuality.
If we are not willing to remove what is dividing from the body then the body will be divided and not united. 25 years ago in the Lutheran church what was dividing was a cavalier attitude about the word. I dont see that it is so different today.
There must be division before there can be unity. This is a principle of God that is shown through out the scripture and even in nature.
The cells in our human body must divide before a new creature is formed. Adam's flesh had to be divided that Eve could be formed and given back to him to be united with HIM; Christ had to be divided from life that the Bride could be united to HIM; we must be divided one day from this body where sin lives that we can be united with HIM in heaven where we shall forever be with HIM. The Israelites had to be divided from the Egyptians that they could enter covenant with God. Leaven must be divided from the lump if the whole lump is not to be leavened.
Division is necessary that unity can occur.
2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
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HisGrace
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
From HG -You are not going to tell me that Jesus didn't come to earth to bring peace.
And apparently neither is the scripture:
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
He did not come to bring peace on earth. He came to bring the two edged sword of the Spirit that would discern the thoughts and intentions of men. And would divide even blood family relationships.
When He comes to establish an earthly Kingdom, then there will peace on earth.
He is indeed however, the Prince of Peace; but at this time the only peace that is come to earth is the peace that exisits in the spirit of the born again Child of God in the form of fruit of the Holy Spirit that indwells us. Peace is within us as is the Kingdom. He did not come to bring peace on earth, but peace in our hearts and in our spirits.
HFHS you are arguing against me when I say we can have peace, and then you say we can have peace? I agree that is only through Jesus.
The scriptures disctintly say peace on earth good will towards men. That doesn't mean 2000 or 3000 years down the road. My God is a lot more powerful than that. Yes, ultimately Jesus will reign in total peace, but in the meantime we can choose peace in our own lives through his precious blood.
Jesus came to bring peace to mankind here and now, by using the two-edged sword of his spirit and the gospel to fight against the devil himself, in order that we can receive peace.
By his coming, naturally the devil is going to do everything in his power to prevent us from that peace through discention, but if we choose Jesus he will bring that peace into our individual lives.
This is the sort of peace we can presently strive for -- now -
John 14:27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. (that's for you and me - now).
Romans 5:1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a]have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, (that's for you and me - now)
Eph.2:14-17For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near.[that's for you and me - now)
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
So the kingdom is NOT within us, as you wrote in your quote. The Holy Spirit is within us, but He is not the kingdom, He is part of the Godhead
The Bible says that it is...
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
1 Corinthians 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
but that does not mean that we are not the Kingdom, as you have said we are. The Kingdom has always been a people...
Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
So one does not prevent the other.
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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BORN AGAIN
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dear sister helpforhomeschoolers (HFHS), you write, among other things quote:
Peace is within us as is the Kingdom.
I agree that God's peace is within us, but I see God's kingdom being a physical reality "out there":
Acts 10:35
But in every nation, s/he who fears Him, and works righteousness, is accepted with Him.
This a physical reality, a kingdom made up real, living believers, grouped in every nation, and collectively the current kingdom of God on earth until the Israel/Judah thing happens.
So the kingdom is NOT within us, as you wrote in your quote. The Holy Spirit is within us, but He is not the kingdom, He is part of the Godhead.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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helpforhomeschoolers
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You are not going to tell me that Jesus didn't come to earth to bring peace.
And apparently neither is the scripture:
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
He did not come to bring peace on earth. He came to bring the two edged sword of the Spirit that would discern the thoughts and intentions of men. And would divide even blood family relationships.
When He comes to establish an earthly Kingdom, then there will peace on earth.
He is indeed however, the Prince of Peace; but at this time the only peace that is come to earth is the peace that exisits in the spirit of the born again Child of God in the form of fruit of the Holy Spirit that indwells us. Peace is within us as is the Kingdom. He did not come to bring peace on earth, but peace in our hearts and in our spirits.
Colossians 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
But peace is not in the world and neither will it be until Christ is come again to earth and even then that peace will kept with a rod of iron among the nations; it will be a peace for Israel as she will not be oppressed by her earthly enemies.
What about unity among us - between us - with each other. Paul said divisions must come:
For now divisions must come in the church; they come with a purpose:
1 Corinthians 11:19 for it behoveth sects also to be among you, that those approved may become manifest among you;
Paul said that we would not come to unity of faith before we were perfect men, but Paul also said that till we come to unity of faith we should strive for unity of Spirit in the bond of peace and to do so was to walk worthy of our calling.
Lets look at this teaching of Paul's:
quote:
1 ¶ I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 ¶ With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Walk worthy says Paul with all humbleness and gentleness - with patience - lift one another in love trying to, seeking to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace (tranquility, harmony, concord,)
Paul puts us in remembrance:
quote:
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;One Lord, one faith, one baptism,One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Paul says it is the same Christ.. that has given us all spiritual gift, poured out his life for us, went to the grave for us - that give us now that he is ascended, people in the body to pastor, to teach, to minster.....
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7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Why?
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12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
for our becoming perfect - for the work of ministery to each other - for the edifying of the WHOLE body
This needs continue till we come to unity of fatih.....
quote:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
He gives to us these vocations in the body that this not happen to us:
quote:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
The Body when ministering to each other according to the vocations and gifts that God has given us to the body as prevents us from being carried about by every wind of doctrine - prevents men from coming against us to deceive and take advantage - there is safety in the flocking together of the flock.
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15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
In the flock - truth (HIS WORD IS TRUTH) is spoken in love that we all grow up INTO HIM... we can't be growing up into him without the truth of the word and with out ministering to each other according as God has given us gifts to minister and suplly the needs of the body.
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17 ¶ This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
SO! Says Paul, DONT walk like the Gentiles in vanity of your mind - like ones with out understanding- Dont walk like you are alienated from God's life - Dont walk like you have given yourself over to uncleaness.
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20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
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21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Take off the old
quote:
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Put on the new; This is what this looks like:
- 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour:for we are members one of another.
- 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
- 27 Neither give place to the devil.
How do we give place to the devil? We might look at how others in the Bible gave place to the devil. And How Jesus never gave place to the devil though he was tempted.
- 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Work for what you have and give to them that need.
- 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Let what is coming out of your mouth minister grace -
- 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
What makes the Spirit grieve? I think that we must grieve the Spirit when we do not walk in the spirit and place ourselves in bondage tht HE as freed us from.
- 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Guard your heart
- 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.
How can we not forgive when we know what things have been forgiven of us? Is there really anything we cannot forgive in that light?
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1 ¶ Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
How did Jesus follow God? What things did he do? Nee said that we must study Christ - what did christ do? How did he deal with different situations? With different people? What did he accept? What did he oppose? What did he tolerate? When did he show compassion? To whom? IF we are to follow God we must get into the mind of Christ - love what HE loves - Hate what he hates - deal with the issues of life as HE did.
- 3 ¶ But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient:
- but rather giving of thanks.
In all things give thanks - IN ALL THINGS GIVE THANKS - Is someone coming against us? Give thanks - Do you endure suffering - Give thanks- Have you been abused - give thanks - Is life grand - give thanks - IN ALL THINGs
- 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
- 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
- 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
- 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Why is it that in all these verses where Paul beseeches us to endeavor to have unity of the Spirit he talks of first our hearts (Humble, gentle, patient) then our actions:
Lift each other up
speak with grace
Minster to one another
Dont sin
dont sin
dont sin
dont sin
dont sin
dont sin
I dont know, but I think it is because it is sin that divides. And the heart that is not humble does not recognize sin, and things like patience and meekness and love are a fruit of the spirit - fruit of the spirit usually are found in the humble heart.
Unity of the Spirit must come out of the working of the Spirit in us.
There will not be unity of the Spirit when one of two is walking in the flesh even if he is one who is able to walk in the spirit. He has to get in the spirit to be in unity with one that is in the spirit.
To me it seems, that if we want to have unity of the Spirit then we must remove what is dividing. Paul did this when he went to speak with Peter about his error regarding the circumcision. If Peter had not also been in the Spirit there might have been a very different accounting written. When Paul spoke the truth - the Spirit of God in Peter heard and knew it was the truth; if Peter had been in the flesh, he might have argued or resisted.
I think that If we truly want unity then we will seek the truth at all cost including our pride and self.
Let every man be a liar (including this man in me) - Let God be true. TO me, That is the spirit that finds unity of the Spirit. It is the one that begs HIS Lord to be shown his error that he can repent and seeks HIM and HIS Truth with all their being..
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
quote:
2 Corinthians 11: 13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Romans 16: 17Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Hello? What part of this isn't clear?
This is talking about those who "CLAIM" to be "Christian" and those who Claim to be Apostles (Teachers) of Jesus Christ (but they are liars). There Is No Unity between These and a True Believer. The Bible is our Certain Ruler with which we measure these claims... if it don't line up with Scripture, it's a lie and we are to AVOID Them. No Unity here.
Of course there are a lot of bad guys in the world. I like to focus on the powerful teachings of Jesus and Paul showing me how to live my own life in a Godly way, and be a good role model in order to teach others how to walk the straight and narrow.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace: From Barne's Notes - Matthew 10:34-36 Think not that I am come, etc. This is taken from Micah 7:6. Christ did not here mean to say that the object of his coming was to produce discord and contention, FOR HE WAS THE PRINCE OF PEACE Isaiah 9:6; 11:6; Luke 2:14; but he means to say that such would be one of the effects of his coming. One part of a family that was opposed to him, would set themselves against those who believed in him. The wickedness of men, and not the religion of the gospel, is the cause of this hostility. It is unnecessary to say that no prophecy has been more strikingly fulfilled; and it will continue to be fulfilled, till all unite in obeying his commandments. Then his religion will produce universal peace.
Show me the Scripture verse on the bolded part please. And who is Barnes? And Why do you keep ignoring the Scriptures that say to have No Fellowship with, or Avoid those who teach falsely? "Have no fellowship," "Avoid"... that means "Division" Not "Unity" under the conditions set forth in Scripture by the Apostles (which were God-Breathed).
Universal Peace WILL NOT COME UNTIL JESUS CHRIST RETURNS AS KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS and establishes HIS Millinial Kingdom on Earth. That is when All will obey HIS commandments.
Barne's commentaries on the New Testament are very well respected and others have used his interpretations on this Board. He is among a list in Bible Study Guide.
Looks like we are into the semantics issue as usual Soft Touch. You are not going to tell me that Jesus didn't come to earth to bring peace. It's our choice. The devil isn't too happy to have the Holy Spirit here, and of course he is going to work overtime to make discord. When Barnes mentioned universal peace maybe he meant when Jesus comes. I'll check down further into his notes.
I already gave my thoughts on being unequally yoked.
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SoftTouch
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quote:
2 Corinthians 11: 13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Romans 16: 17Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Hello? What part of this isn't clear?
This is talking about those who "CLAIM" to be "Christian" and those who Claim to be Apostles (Teachers) of Jesus Christ (but they are liars). There Is No Unity between These and a True Believer. The Bible is our Certain Ruler with which we measure these claims... if it don't line up with Scripture, it's a lie and we are to AVOID Them. No Unity here.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace: From Barne's Notes - Matthew 10:34-36 Think not that I am come, etc. This is taken from Micah 7:6. Christ did not here mean to say that the object of his coming was to produce discord and contention, FOR HE WAS THE PRINCE OF PEACE Isaiah 9:6; 11:6; Luke 2:14; but he means to say that such would be one of the effects of his coming. One part of a family that was opposed to him, would set themselves against those who believed in him. The wickedness of men, and not the religion of the gospel, is the cause of this hostility. It is unnecessary to say that no prophecy has been more strikingly fulfilled; and it will continue to be fulfilled, till all unite in obeying his commandments. Then his religion will produce universal peace.
Show me the Scripture verse on the bolded part please. And who is Barnes? And Why do you keep ignoring the Scriptures that say to have No Fellowship with, or Avoid those who teach falsely? "Have no fellowship," "Avoid"... that means "Division" Not "Unity" under the conditions set forth in Scripture by the Apostles (which were God-Breathed).
Universal Peace WILL NOT COME UNTIL JESUS CHRIST RETURNS AS KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS and establishes HIS Millinial Kingdom on Earth. That is when All will obey HIS commandments.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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HisGrace
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I wasn't going to comment on 2 Cor. 6:14-18 because it is like beating a dead horse, but here goes again.
To me this means that we are not supposed to intermingle with unbelievers in a way that we would be to tempted to partake in any activities unique to an unGodly lifestyle. We should not be subject to identification with any worldy ways.
Jesus associated with publicans and sinners,but his motives were pure. He even dined with them
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Matthew 10:34-36 NASB
(34) "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
(35) "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
(36) and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
Micah 7:6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Luke 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
From Barne's Notes - Matthew 10:34-36 Think not that I am come, etc. This is taken from Micah 7:6. Christ did not here mean to say that the object of his coming was to produce discord and contention, FOR HE WAS THE PRINCE OF PEACE Isaiah 9:6; 11:6; Luke 2:14; but he means to say that such would be one of the effects of his coming. One part of a family that was opposed to him, would set themselves against those who believed in him. The wickedness of men, and not the religion of the gospel, is the cause of this hostility. It is unnecessary to say that no prophecy has been more strikingly fulfilled; and it will continue to be fulfilled, till all unite in obeying his commandments. Then his religion will produce universal peace.
But a sword. The sword is an instrument of death, and to send a sword is the same as to produce hostility and war.
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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
TRUE unity can ONLY come with submitting to The Holy Spirit - In God's Truth
ALL other unity is of the flesh - or of the enemy - and is sin
2 Corinthians 6:14-18 NASB
(14) Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
(15) Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?
(16) Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
(17) "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you.
(18) "And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.
Matthew 10:34-36 NASB
(34) "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
(35) "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
(36) and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
AMEN!
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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wparr
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TRUE unity can ONLY come with submitting to The Holy Spirit - In God's Truth
ALL other unity is of the flesh - or of the enemy - and is sin
2 Corinthians 6:14-18 NASB
(14) Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
(15) Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?
(16) Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
(17) "Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you.
(18) "And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.
Matthew 10:34-36 NASB
(34) "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
(35) "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
(36) and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
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HisGrace
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The following scriptures especially stand out for me -
quote:
Rev. 7:9,10 After this I saw a vast crowd (multitudes), TOO GREAT TO COUNT, from every nation and tribe and people and language,standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb.
1 Cor. 12:13 Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles, some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into Christ's body by one Spirit, and we have all received the same Spirit.
When Jesus was on the cross we were all equal -
It made no difference what our beliefs were or how good, or how evil we were. He shed his blood equally for us all.
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:"
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TEXASGRANDMA
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"Gen 11:4-7
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."
(KJV)
When the people united, they could do anything and God knew it so he mixed up the language.
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this was obviously not a unity God approved of, or we would all speak one language today.
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"How? Simple. I'm so busy working out my own salvation that I don't have time to consider what other people may be doing while working out their own salvation."
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Another example of Christians who have no compassion on others. The whole world can go to hell in a handbasket as long as me and those I love make it to Heaven. This is not what the Great Commission is about.
The truth is there will not be one Church on this side of Heaven simply because there are issues that divide Christans, but when we are in Heaven there will be no dividing issues because all will be known. There will not be a Church that doesn't believe in wearing wedding rings because there will be no husbands and wifes in Heaven. By then the answer of pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib will be answered compeletely. We will know without a doubt how God wants us to dress because He will provide the clothing. Until then denomations are not here to divide the Christians as much as to provide a place for a Christian feels more comfortable. Like my husband who likes the tradional service and my son who likes the modern. They both attend Churches where the truth of the Gospel is preached but they like different music. I don't see this as bad.
I do fear one denomation because they does remind me of the future one Relgion which does scare me.
not for myself, but for those innocent ones who have no clue. I do have compassion on the innocent.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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HisGrace
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Talk about getting together and making a difference. Look at this concerning conversion of the masses. To God be the Glory.
Rev. 4:-5-19 And I heard how many were marked with the seal of God. There were 144,000 who were sealed from the tribes of Israel -
from Judah . . . . . . . . . 12,000
from Reuben . . . . . . . . 12,000
from Gad . . . . . . . . . . . 12,000
from Asher . . . . . . . . . 12,000
from Naphtali . . . . . . . 12,000
from Manasseh . . . . . . 12,000
from Simeon . . . . . . . 12,000
from Levi . . . . . . . . . . . 12,000
from Issachar . . . . . . . . 12,000
from Zebulun . . . . . . . 12,000
from Joseph . . . . . . . . . 12,000
from Benjamin . . . . . . 12,000
After this I saw a vast crowd (multitudes), TOO GREAT TO COUNT, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white and held palm branches in their hands.
And they were shouting with a mighty shout, "Salvation comes from our God on the throne and from the Lamb!"
And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living beings. And they fell face down before the throne and worshiped God.
They said, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and strength belong to our God forever and forever. Amen!"
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BORN AGAIN
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sister TEXASGRANDMA quotes sister Carmela quote:
Sister Carmela wrote: "No matter what anyone else says, I will continue to work daily at becoming unified with others because it isn't until we all learn to work together that we will see changes. There is a strength in numbers and when we all work together, we become powerful."
Betty replied: This will be the lie the anti-Christ tells the people when he starts his one world religion.
Let’s compromise the truth so much that everyone can find the milk palatable.
betty
With all due respect, sister Carmela is talking about among Christians; she is not talking about anti-Christs or anti-Christians, right? Carmela is talking about Christians to unite "for the love of God".
TEXASGRANDMA replied: quote:
Betty replied: This will be the lie the anti-Christ tells the people when he starts his one world religion.
It is a far cry, sister TEXASGRANDMA, from some "misguided Christian teachers" (according to some) to "a one-world religion".
Let's be a bit more realistic here. There are 1 billion+ Bhuddists and 2 billion+ Islamics and 1 billion+ Hindus and 1.5 billion+ Christians in the world.
A little bit OF wrong preaching on the part of otherwise wholesome preachers and teachers will be the catalyst for a one-world religion all of a sudden? Please, sister, isn't that an exaggeration?
May the LORD God of Israel bless us all on this CBBS, I am BORN AGAIN by the of Yahshua-Jesus of Bethlehen-Judah, a Son of David.
"righteous forever more, holy is the LORD"
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TEXASGRANDMA
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"No matter what anyone else says, I will continue to work daily at becoming unified with others because it isn't until we all learn to work together that we will see changes. There is a strength in numbers and when we all work together, we become powerful."
This will be the lie the anti-Christ tells the people when he starts his one world religion.
Let’s compromise the truth so much that everyone can find the milk palatable.
betty
The Narrow Way
(Luke 13:24)
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 *Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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SoftTouch
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
HisGrace,
“I was referring to those who keep saying that many preachers teach a false gospel, and those same people think they are the only ones who know the Truth, and all the rest of us are going to be damned.”
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His Grace there is such thing as creative license, but what your wrote there falls under the heading of a vicious lie. That comment has not been said by anyone.
quote:
From Soft Touch -Many preachers DO teach a false gospel, but NO One here (to my knowledge) has Ever said the rest of what you say above (or even implied it for that matter).
The list is quite long, but I will just give a tiny sample of what has been said on this Board re followers of these preachers.
"If you are for Joyce Meyer, you are for Satan."
"Yes, many churches to-day are being led by false preachers, who are leading their people right to Hell." {Re Benny Hinn}
"Clearly Jesus is not for everyone."
"We are told that preachers are setting us up to believe in the anti-Christ and we will 'miss it.'
Why does such a beautiful topic have to be derailed with such bitter accusations?
Quotes only work as proof if you put a 'source' to them.
But I will say this... If you're following a preacher and Not Jesus Christ and HIS Written Word, then you're definitely Not on the Straight and Narrow. Especially if that preacher preaches a twisted Gospel/Doctrine. Where do you think the other roads lead?
Now, if that applies to you HisGrace, then perhaps it's time to re-evaluate who and what you're listening to.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Carmela
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That is a great post HisGrace and thanks for putting the topic back on track. That is exactly the point I was trying to get to.
No matter what anyone else says, I will continue to work daily at becoming unified with others because it isn't until we all learn to work together that we will see changes. There is a strength in numbers and when we all work together, we become powerful. The bible points that out.
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HisGrace
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We have been talking about unity - I just love that word. It says so much
This is how the dictionary defines it -
- a condition of harmony
- continuity without deviation or change (as in purpose or action)
- the quality or state of not being multiple
- the quality of being united into one
- an unreduced or unbroken completeness or totality
Isn't that what Jesus wants for our lives?
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BORN AGAIN
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TEXASGRANDMA writes quote:
How a Christian can sit quietly by while Preachers and Teachers watered down the truth of the Gospel, all for pleasing the crowd is beyond me. It breaks my heart.
How? Simple. I'm so busy working out my own salvation that I don't have time to consider what other people may be doing while working out their own salvation.
Any Christian who tries to get his/her "salvation" through another Christian places him/herself at risk, and it is their own fault--it is the blind leading the blind then and they both may fall into the ditch.
Hebrews 6:12
That you be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Proverbs 21:25
The desire of the slothful kills him; for his hands refuse to labor.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
HisGrace,
“I was referring to those who keep saying that many preachers teach a false gospel, and those same people think they are the only ones who know the Truth, and all the rest of us are going to be damned.”
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His Grace there is such thing as creative license, but what your wrote there falls under the heading of a vicious lie. That comment has not been said by anyone.
quote:
From Soft Touch -Many preachers DO teach a false gospel, but NO One here (to my knowledge) has Ever said the rest of what you say above (or even implied it for that matter).
The list is quite long, but I will just give a tiny sample of what has been said on this Board re followers of these preachers.
"If you are for Joyce Meyer, you are for Satan."
"Yes, many churches to-day are being led by false preachers, who are leading their people right to Hell." {Re Benny Hinn}
"Clearly Jesus is not for everyone."
"We are told that preachers are setting us up to believe in the anti-Christ and we will 'miss it.'
Why does such a beautiful topic have to be derailed with such bitter accusations?
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Soft Touch and Linda,
Those who condem us look at themselves as risk takers, but the truth is the real risk takers are those who stand up for the truth of God's Word.
How a Christian can sit quietly by while Preachers and Teachers waterd down the truth of the Gospel, all for pleasing the crowd is beyond me. It breaks my heart.
Not only that, but they are setting up the people in the Church to believe the anti-Christ when he says that it doesn't matter whether we pray to Jesus or God as long as we pray. By the time they realize the "god" the anti-Christ is promoting is himself, it will be too late.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
good answer, helpforhomeschoolers (HFHS), but on the other hand, "you must be born again" first in order to any of those things well? Study the Word, eventually "hear the Word in one's own spirit" (that takes practice), but by now, the person is already a Christian, already "born again"? God bless, BORN AGAIN by the
I think BORN AGAIN IS seeing somewhat as to what I am trying to say. Of course I believe every word in the Bible is true.
However, what matters most to get into heaven is the Truth of being born again and living by the love covenant.
If someone is at death's door and they have never been saved, what is the one and only decision they need to make to ensure their salvation in order to make it into heaven? That's a personal decision to accept Jesus into their lives. This is the only Truth they need at that moment.
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SoftTouch
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AMEN Betty and Linda!
Betty that was an awsome story! I remember the first part of it from a while back, but I'm so glad to hear your Mom heard it from another and it started to sink in! God Is AWSOME!!!!
We (people) are the tools God uses by the urging of HIS Holy Spirit. I hope I Never tell our Abba God "Sorry Lord, I'm uncomfortable with the task you're asking me to do, so you'll just need to use another tool" ![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
A couple of months ago, I warned my mom about a Preacher in Houston that she watches faithfully. She got very upset at me and she and my sister decided that my soul was in danger because I dare question a Preacher. But, then another Preacher she liked talked about this Preacher and the way he refused to talk to his people about sin. Well, my mom told me this weekend that she has started to notice herself that the Preacher I warned her about never talks about sin or sinners or even to tell people that abortion is a sin. My mom is beginning to realize just because you are the Preacher in a huge Church does not mean that you are preaching the whole truth of God’s Word.
What a great testimony of one plants another waters and God gives the increase!
![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
One thing is sure; if we are in error; and we are led by HIS spirit, and we hear the truth, at some point HIS spirit will bring conviction to our Spirit and correct the error and cause us to repent of our foolishness.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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HisGrace,
“I was referring to those who keep saying that many preachers teach a false gospel, and those same people think they are the only ones who know the Truth, and all the rest of us are going to be damned.”
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His Grace there is such thing as creative license, but what your wrote there falls under the heading of a vicious lie. That comment has not been said by anyone.
Yes, we are here to warn people to avoid false preachers. They are many out there on T.V. looking like a prophet from God but fooling the masses.
While you see what we do as witch hunting, we see it as a service to warn others of the truth. It has been said by at least one person that if a person is too lazy to read the Bible for themselves that they deserve to be tricked. I disagree. Even though the Bible does chastise baby Christians who should have progressed to meat instead of milk, it does not suggest in any way that they should be left to their own devices.
Besides, let’s face it to a baby Christian, a Preacher who has a Church with ten thousand people, would seem like a Preacher that has it together. Of course they are surprised when they find out that he is watering the Gospel. Sadly, some Christians, judge a Preacher not on the meat of what he is preaching but whether the Preacher has a large Church or has a T.V. show.
A couple of months ago, I warned my mom about a Preacher in Houston that she watches faithfully. She got very upset at me and she and my sister decided that my soul was in danger because I dare question a Preacher. But, then another Preacher she liked talked about this Preacher and the way he refused to talk to his people about sin. Well, my mom told me this weekend that she has started to notice herself that the Preacher I warned her about never talks about sin or sinners or even to tell people that abortion is a sin. My mom is beginning to realize just because you are the Preacher in a huge Church does not mean that you are preaching the whole truth of God’s Word. We here who dare talk about this subject, our goal is to warn people that contrary to the Preacher who stand before thousands of people to preach or has a T.V. ministry, Jesus did talk about sin and sinners. We are not out to trash anyone, but to warn those who are still babies in Christ to be careful, who you feed under. There are some who only feed their people sugar water. If this makes you uncomfortable, well, I just can’t help that. The truth must be told.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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SoftTouch
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
Re: quote:
The only real Truth in the Bible is YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN. and to love one another.
I was referring to those who keep saying that many preachers teach a false gospel, and those same people think they are the only ones who know the Truth, and all the rest of us are going to be damned.
Many preachers DO teach a false gospel, but NO One here (to my knowledge) has Ever said the rest of what you say above (or even implied it for that matter).
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Amen BA and How are we born again? I notice that we are born again of the Spirit BY the word:
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Thus the importance of the WORD being HIS word. Not just accurately, but wholly.
Observe:
Matthew 4:6 ........ for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Psalm 91 :11......... For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
The power to save - the power to destroy; The power to unite in Spirit or to divide - To bring death or life.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
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BORN AGAIN
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good answer, helpforhomeschoolers (HFHS), but on the other hand, "you must be born again" first in order to any of those things well? Study the Word, eventually "hear the Word in one's own spirit" (that takes practice), but by now, the person is already a Christian, already "born again"?
God bless, BORN AGAIN by the
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Genesis 3:3 .................... God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
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HisGrace
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Re: quote:
The only real Truth in the Bible is YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN. and to love one another.
I was referring to those who keep saying that many preachers teach a false gospel, and those same people think they are the only ones who know the Truth, and all the rest of us are going to be damned.
I am referring to the Truth of salvation. The rest is by conviction for our own individual lives.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
I'll leave that one up to you HFHS. I am saying that they are true - you have to show that perhaps I am wrong.
Does that mean you have thought about the implications and you find no scripture that contradicts them; or you dont care if the scripture contradicts them you believe them to be true?
I was thinking that maybe what you said was not what you meant. I was thinking that it was perhaps a semantics thing and you did not really mean that there was only one real truth in the Bible:
quote:
The only real Truth in the Bible is YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN
Does that mean that the devil is the father of lies is not a real truth?
Does that mean that we are sealed to the day of our redemption is not true?
Does that mean that the just shall live by faith is not true?
Does that mean that we are free of the law of sin and death is not true?
Does that mean that Jesus condemned sin in the flesh is not true?
Does that mean that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that preceedeth from the father is not true?
I dont understand???????????????????
How do you reconcile this statement:
quote:
Everything else is up to our own personal convictions.
With this scripture and call it true?
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
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HE LIVES
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quote:
I must completely disagree... the Entire Bible IS Complete and Real TRUTH.
Amen! The bible is truth, but we are false, and in that lies the problem. The bible is perfect, but our understanding in not.
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Carmela
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WhiteEagle you said it perfect and I totally agree. Great post.
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SoftTouch
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HisGrace states: quote:
The only real Truth in the Bible is YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN. and to love one another. Everything else is up to our own personal convictions.
I must completely disagree... the Entire Bible IS Complete and Real TRUTH.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
The only real Truth in the Bible is YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN. and to love one another. Everything else is up to our own personal convictions.
Have you really thought about the implications of these two statements? Is there any scripture that you can think of that would make one or both of these statements false?
I'll leave that one up to you HFHS. I am saying that they are true - you have to show that perhaps I am wrong.
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WhiteEagle
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Some have already stated that Unity among believers in through the Holy Spirit.
God can separate the wheat from the tares, and have Unity of his Body through the Spirit.
Where there are divisions there is no Unity, there is Pride.
It's more than having difference in nonessential doctrines or differences on application of scriptures in one's life.
It's pride that keeps believers from having Unity.
True believers will have Unity of Spirit in spite of any differences that are without the Spirit.
Whether Catholic, Protestant, or nondemonimational, the True Believers who are mature will be able to appreciate their brothers and sisters in Christ for being the foot, or being the nose, or being the hand.
Unity can not occur in the earthly man, it's impossible, as we see by all the different denominations and then the denouncement of others who are different.
Unity cannot occur until beleivers are submitted to the Head; Christ Jesus, then those who are submitted to Him will be in Unity.
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Carmela
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quote:
I think Christians make a grave error when they assume that a lot of these scriptures are meant only for the unbeliever. Think again. Judgement begins in His house.
If I thought that the scriptures were only meant for the unbeliever, then I wouldn't be in bible school, and I wouldn't be studying them daily so that each day I can learn more and grow a little more. When I am with someone and I start to question why they are doing the things they do, I usually go to God in prayer and search my own heart because if I find fault with others, it's usually because something isn't right in my own heart so I don't take the scriptures lightly.
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I guess some of us have very different views on what we consider "petty" and what we consider to be a "firm foundation".
A firm foundation starts with God. If we live by the scriptures and continue to study them daily, then our foundation will continue to be strengthened. I don't call that petty. However, daily studying other people's ministries and then shooting them down is petty to me. Ridiculing each other, arguing with each other, that is petty to me. Nothing in the scriptures is petty to me.
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The verse I quoted doesn't not say Christian against Christian either. Christians most certainly do divide and will continue to do so.
Isn't it time we change this instead of accepting it?
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What do you think apostacy is? Why are we warned about it?
We are warned to be careful who we follow, not to run other ministries down. For all we know, they may have grasped something that others just don't understand yet. I'm certainly not saying this is always the case, and I do think that we need to know the scriptures for ourselves and in depth so that we won't be led astray. I also think that if a mormon came to my house and was witnessing to my neighbors then I would tell my neighbors the truth. However, I don't go around slandering everyone because only God knows whether they are right or wrong and God is quite good at convicting people and leading those astray back into the right direction. He has done it for me so I know He can do it for others as well.
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Why do you think He told us that some would cry Lord Lord? And what does He say to them? Why does He say narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.?
He said this because many sit in church and say I'm Christian but they are not willing to make any sacrifices in their lives to follow Him. They don't want to stop living with a partner in sin or give up gambling, or giving up other sins in their lives. Only God knows EVERYTHING, so I choose not to play God and call someone bad or wrong when in the end it could end up being me that is wrong since I may have been blinded in certain areas. Afterall, NONE OF US ARE PERFECT!
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Unity in the body of Christ must be based in Truth. Unity is not the ultimate objective. Truth is.
Truth is important, but so is unity.
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I would rather fight for the Truth, than get along with a lie.
Only Jesus can tell me I'm getting along with a lie because He is the only one that knows what the real truth is.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
The only real Truth in the Bible is YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN. and to love one another. Everything else is up to our own personal convictions.
Have you really thought about the implications of these two statements? Is there any scripture that you can think of that would make one or both of these statements false?
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