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» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Bible Topics & Study   » Deviating from Biblical Christianity - The Good the Bad and the Ugly (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Deviating from Biblical Christianity - The Good the Bad and the Ugly
timspong
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I agree that smoking is a sin and that it is a sin against the body. However, we should not judge someone who smokes, something that I think most of us are guilty of.

I think it is definately idolitary, because it temporarily fullfills a desire that should be directed towards God. However, rather than condem others we should be constantly trying to improve ourselves by comparison to Christ, not other sinners. That path will only lead to resentment and/or pride.

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Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong

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oneyearandcounting
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Why wouldn't smoking be a sin.

I personnally think that it can be considered a sin. Here in brief is a why. Well hope fully in brief.

When I first came to know the Lord I knew a young man who was only 16. This kid gave his life to Christ but he continued to smoke. At first I had no problem with it. Eventually I did though. Here is why. This kids parents didn't want him smoking. Since they told him not to it started to be a problem with me that he did.

One day he came over we were talking Jesus and he said come outside I want to smoke. While we were out there I basically told him he should quit because what he was doing was wrong. In fact I told him that he was breaking seven of the ten commandments by smoking. I then told him how
I thought he was breaking them. Here is how.

1) because he was addited in a sence he had made them a god to him or atleast an idol.

2) Because he wasn't old enough to buy them he had to either have someone buy for him or get them from someone. This would be considered stealing.

3) If his parents said they didn't want him to smoke and he did, then he wsn't honoring his parents.

4) Well smoking does kill right. So now he is commeting murder.

5) Every time he saw someone with a smoke and said wow I need one of those then he was coveting.

6) Kind of hard to keep the Sabbath holy if you are breaking all these commandements on it.

7) Because he was smoking but telling his paerents he wasn't well I guess that is a lie .


Now does this imply to all smokers. No it doesn't but I bet you can get a few broken commandments if you are addicted to the little nasty things.

So if you smoke which commadments are you breaking.

My wife smoke and she ended up quiting she basically said that she would feel embarressed if Christ was to tap her on the shoulder and say hello while she had a cigerette in her hand.


God bless you all

greg

--------------------
Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.

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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helforhomeschoolers;Some have created lists of actions of the flesh that they say are sinful such as drinking, smoking, dancing, watching movies or TV or even listening to certain Christian music.
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
From HG - Oh my. To me it's a no brainer - it's a sin. (Smoking)
Praise God he does not choose us for our brains huh? There are lots of things that I see that are no brainers to me and you disagree.

Wont be the first time today that I have been accused of being brainless Hisgrace, and probably not the last time that you and I will disagree on what is or is not sin. There are somethings that are not specifically listed in the scripture as sin that can be sin to one man and not sin to another.

Oh come on HFHS you know right well that I didn't accuse you of being brainless. I said 'to me'

It really has been on my mind that a Christian would even remotely question that cigarette smoking is not a sin.
We have a ban on cigarette smoking in public places citywide for at least five years now, even in bars and pubs, because the Health Dept. really is aware of the dangers of smoke and second-hand smoke. There are going to be strict laws put in place for the whole province by the the first part of next year banning smoking, even on restaurant patios in the summer.

There is a woman in my city in her fifties who is dying from lung cancer, and she never smoked a day in her life. She was a waitress for years in smoke-filled restaurants and the doctors say the cancer is from second-hand smoke. Just recently she announced that she is in the final stages of cancer. She has been going to high schools throughout the province of Ontario, explaining to teenagers the dangers of smoking .

1 Corinthians 6:19
Or don't you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself

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Carmela
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I wasn't even offended by the post but I guess I came across that way. My point was that I see different denominations being discussed and I don't agree with all of what was said.

I choose to be non-denominational for a simple reason. I don't feel that I need to be under man's label. His banner over me is love. His label upon me is Jesus. I don't need to be labeled Penecostal, Baptist, or anything else. I haven't found a church that preaches some of what I saw posted in the post.

I did read through the lists and I feel they are labels that people are trying to place on others because not all churches fall under the teachings listed so it leads people astray. I agree however, that not all denominations are teaching correct doctrine and that many overlook sin and allow it in the church which is an abomination to the Lord. God will deal with them. I have heard of many time when God has revealed His truth to people that were preaching unsound doctrine or not fullfilling their ministerial duties as they should.

For instance this,
quote:
Some have created lists of actions of the flesh that they say are sinful such as drinking, smoking, dancing, watching movies or TV or even listening to certain Christian music. Some do not even allow musical instruments in church but these same churches ignore actions of the flesh like gluttony, gossip and judging everyone as sinners who have the greater faith to believe that God does not abide by their list of man made forbidden activities
This isn't always true. Churches do try to address the issues and even if they don't the answers are right there in the bible for us to find outselves, but we are all human we all sin. Also, many choose to rely on the spoken word instead of searching out the truth for themselves, which is wrong of course. We are all guilty of these sins at times. A Pastor can preach a sermon, but the people are the ones that make up the church. The people are sinners, it's just the way it is. No, it doesn't make it right by any means but we are all responsible for our own actions. We can preach a good message, but in the end the responsibility will be on each individual. The church does not teach that these things are ok to overlook. In fact, went to many churches in Vermont when I was looking for a home church and again when I came here and I NEVER found a church that said that it's ok to overlook those things mentioned.

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BORN AGAIN
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sister helpforhomeschoolers writes
quote:
I would have argued with you just now about Shuller being named in the article except that I just did a find searcha nd yep there he is. I did not when I read the article see the names, I was sincere when I said that the article did not put anyone down. I guess I need to read more closely.
Yes, that's true, we probably should read things more closely, but we do not often have the "luxury of time" to read it all, but, gathering that an article is interesting, goes ahead and posts it.

By the way, HFHS, you also write
quote:
I certainly dont try and edit other people's stuff and use for my own.
Personally, I don't see a problem with learning stuff from people and then using it as my own in my own uses for it.

But when I take parts of a book like Edersheim or J.H Allen, I usually just say "adapted from J.H. Allen" or whatever, because "it's partial".

But in this case, HisGrace, I did not know until just now that the article contained the names of Robert Schuller and of Benny Hinn, in what, a put-down way, was that it? So in a way HisGrace had some ground for protest, it turns out, and you admitted as much, HFHS.

God bless all of us on this CBBS, I am BORN AGAIN by the [Cross]

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helpforhomeschoolers
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It was an inadvertent cut and paste error tyring to fit too much text in one pane; I never saw it. In fact, I would have argued with you just now about Shuller being named in the article except that I just did a find searcha nd yep there he is. I did not when I read the article see the names, I was sincere when I said that the article did not put anyone down. I guess I need to read more closely.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by hardcore:
I don't think HFHS tried to sneak anything into this (your?) forum. The article she posted was informational and had a lot of room for comment and discussion. It did not focus on false teachers, and quite frankly, is an important subject that a lot of Christians should read. Besides, you said you didn't read it, so how did you so quickly determine that it didn't belong here? You are the only one that mentioned names - Warren, Meyer, Hinn - the article did not.

In defence of Carmela, the article did mention 'false' teachers. Robert Schuller's teachings were called heretical and a very derogatory remark about Benny Hinn was made.

That was my problem HFHS, when I read your posts the first time I saw BH's name, but didn't see it a second time.

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Carmela
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Hardcore I could sit here and argue forever, but it wouldn't do a bit of good.

I don't follow a wishy washy anything. In fact, I only get NBC on my tv which I rarely watch so I don't even watch preachers on tv. I spend most of my time either in class,doing homework, studying the bible, or doing mom duties so I don't have much time left for listening to other's preach God's word when I'm totally capable of reading it for myself.

If I came across as if I was on some rampage, then I didn't mean to. It wasn't my intent or my attitude when I typed the post.

I'm not going to lower myself or try to defend myself because Jesus is my defender and He is all I need. It doesn't matter to me what man thinks, only what He thinks of me.

I don't need to be put on the fire in a forum, because I only want God's fire.

If anyone wants to move my post because I named a couple of names, so be it. It wouldn't hurt my feelings a bit although I think you are the only one on the attack here right now. I feel like a mouse in front of a cat only this mouse knows where to turn when the heat is turned up so she doesn't get burned.

I didn't have to read the entire posts to see the sections about denominations and the comments about them. It's funny to me how so many people can pass judgment on other denominations but seem to fail to look in their mirror which is actually the first place Jesus wants us to start seeking.

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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
We all know what it implies. Maybe if she would provide a link we may find some goodies in there in the unedited version, which would back up what Carmela is trying to show us.

What does this mean? Are you implying that I edited the article before posting it for some kind of devious reason? I am not sure that I understand the point of that? I thought the article was a good one. It was very long but I believe I posted it in its entirety. I dont usually post a lot of other people's stuff. I certainly dont try and edit other people's stuff and use for my own,. I stated that I got it from another board. I really dont understand the implication that you are making HG.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Here is the link to the original article. I know nothing about the site. I saw this article on another board.

http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/Apostasy%20in%20the%20Church.HTM

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helpforhomeschoolers
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Which article HG, the original one? It was posted on another board. I will get it for you. The other one is from CARM. www. carm.org. Do you mean the opening one though?
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HisGrace
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There is no copyright given for this article from HFHS. I thought that was necessary when posting.We all know what it implies. Maybe if she would provide a link we may find some goodies in there in the unedited version, which would back up what Carmela is trying to show us.
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Hardcore to Carmela:
quote:
You are the only one that mentioned names - Warren, Meyer, Hinn - the article did not. Maybe your post is the one that belongs in the other forum?
Too funny, good retort to what was said earlier, I think by HisGrace suggesting HFHS should have put her Topic "Deviating from Biblical Christianity" on the "other forum". Touché, hardcore.

God bless, [Cross] BORN AGAIN

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hardcore
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quote:
Carmella: Hardcore a person doesn't have to read a post to respond intelligently. I was stating that I was replying to other replies made, not the post itself. That shows everyone reading that 1) my replies were not about the post and 2) if I didn't respond to something in the post, it's because I didn't read it. As far as you (Hardcore) are concerned, if it's considered unintelligent to reply to others and not to the post, so be it. I was being honest from the start as to not falsely lead someone.
Okay.

quote:
Carmella: However, we don't have Jesus here with us right now so we take the word of the preacher, and then we should be checking to see if it lines up with God's word. So, we are usually under the authority of "man" but that man should be under God's authority and teaching the bible correctly.
Isn't it odd then, that so many on this board have serious problems holding man's teaching under the biblical microscope. If what you say is true, I wonder why those who do hold a man's (or woman's) preaching accountable to the Word of God, get vilified for doing so.

quote:
Hardcore: Who is the "you" that you refer to? Who is teaching that the bible is full of errors?
quote:
Carmella: How difficult is this to understand? If it applies to someone, then they will know because it's what they believe. "YOU" is all of those in this forum that are teaching this doctrine. If you agree with what I type, then it doesn't apply because you are not in disagreement with me. If I were to name one or 2 people, it would only apply to them. I was addressing all that believe the bible has errors.
It was difficult enough that I wanted to clarify. It seemed that you were on a rant, so to speak, and I really couldn't figure out to whom and why.

quote:
+ All believe that original scripture is without error
quote:
Carmella: This was in the post and it's what I was addressing. I see so often that you Hardcore and HFHS and others have put down other denominations as if to say what you (Hardcore) believe is correct and everyone is wrong. I once posted an excerpt from the Purpose Driven Life book and got all kinds of ridicule yet nothing I had quoted was wrong. Since then, I have finished reading the book and again I didn't find all of this false stuff that was posted in several forums here. Yet because people in this forum disagree (and most probably haven't even read the book for themselves but instead made a decision based on what others said) people in this forum attacked the post so the entire message and purpose of that post was totally missed. The message got tarnished with all of the posts that were attacking Rick Warren and had nothing to do with the quote I typed out.
How often is "so often" exactly? It implies " a lot", and I just don't see that here. I can't speak for others, but I don't believe that you've ever seen me put down another denomination, except possibly the RCC in a thread directly related to that subject.

If you didn't find an abundance of false teaching in the Purpose Driven Life then you must have been reading with only one eye open at 3am after two Excedrin PMs. Either that, or you've got a serious problem with your discernment antenna. So much for holding man's word under God's authority and teaching the bible correctly.

quote:
Carmella: ......but then again since you are teaching the bible is full or errors, there isn't any true doctrine to line up the spoken word with the True word of God I guess.
quote:
Hardcore: Who is the "you" that you refer to? Who is teaching that the bible is full of errors?
quote:
Carmella: Obviously, whomever believe this way, are the very people I'm addressing. I didn't post that list of things that are supposedly wrong with Evangelical/Pentecostal churches.
It wasn't that obvious. I'm not the only one who had no idea who you were addressing.

quote:
Carmella: Many of the people in this forum are out to change us (that don't believe as some of you do) it seems. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't and there isn't anything wrong with that. I think that is why every once in a while someone tries to sneak in a post into this forum even though posts like this have a forum of their own.
Nobody in here is out to change you (plural). Only God can do that, but I will admit that it would be nice if some of you (plural) would take off your "why can't we all get along" rose colored glasses.

I don't think HFHS tried to sneak anything into this (your?) forum. The article she posted was informational and had a lot of room for comment and discussion. It did not focus on false teachers, and quite frankly, is an important subject that a lot of Christians should read. Besides, you said you didn't read it, so how did you so quickly determine that it didn't belong here? You are the only one that mentioned names - Warren, Meyer, Hinn - the article did not. Maybe your post is the one that belongs in the other forum?

quote:
Carmella: By us, I mean anyone that doesn't believe it's our job to bash other religions and prove them to be wrong. Just because some people feel it's their calling to expose false religions, doesn't mean that we need to read the posts and have it exposed in this section. For you defense, I do realize that what you are doing is being done because you want us to know what you believe to be correct and that what other's teach don't line up with what you believe. However, some of us don't feel that some of the teachers that are posted about are wrong. Since no one is 100% correct in what they teach, then it isn't wrong for us to listen to Joyce Meyers or Benny Hinn and then weed out the good from the bad for ourselves. I have listened to Joyce many time and I think she is actually being misquoted and misinterpreted quite often. However, I don't try to convince anyone that she has some good words to share with people. Many are healed and set free from things because of Joyce so her ministry isn't all bad as some would have people think.
There is a big difference between standing for the Truth and "bashing other religions". It's not a matter of what we believe Carmella. It's about the Truth. You seem to be under the impression that God's Word is some wishy washy piece of literature up for many interpretations. I don't happen to agree. I think it's a lot more straight forward than that. Unfortunately, agreeing on one Truth is impossible for those who like to bend it depending on which way their wind is blowing at the time - or should I say whichever way their favorite TV preacher's wind is blowing.

It doesn't surprise me at all to find that you think Joyce is misquoted and misinterpreted. I have seen Joyce in person several times; in fact, just a couple of months ago. Don't bother defending the health/wealth/prosperity gospel. It won't work. If anyone is "healed" and "set free" as you say, it is because of the other "J", not her. If God chooses to use Joyce in spite of herself, then Praise God. That simply proves His infinite grace and mercy on us and her, it does not prove her right.

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Carmela
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Betty and Drew I definitely agree that we have to accept Salvation, however the bible also says this:

Matt 7:7-8
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
(KJV)

God is a big God and He can open the eyes of the blind. We need to pray for others and be a witness to them. However, I know some people that use to follow other religions, and now they have found Jesus. I believe that while they were seriously searching for the truth, God opened their eyes. If they were learning the truth and still going to another church, don't you think Jesus would have met with them if they died? The bible says we are judged according to what we know.

Greg I certainly won't go as far as to say that "ALL" Witnesses will be saved because Jesus will judge each person accordingly. Each church and denomination has people that are not true Christians and others that continue to search for the truth. I also would definitely not stop witnessing to them because they need to know the truth. However, they have been led by false teachings and they only know what they have been taught. We need to be the light to a dark and lost world. I believe Jesus will look at the heart, and if someone is close to salvation because they are seeking and finding, and then they die, I believe God will take that into account. He is a just God afterall.

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helpforhomeschoolers
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You can't Greg. I am not sure why BA believes that the JW are Christians. I have never asked him.

This is from CARM on the subject: I would say that it echo's pretty well my position on the JW group.

Is the Jehovah's Witness religion Christian?

The answer to the question is, "No. It is not Christian." Like all non-Christian cults, the Jehovah's Witness organization distorts the essential doctrines of Christianity. It denies the deity of Christ, His physical resurrection, and salvation by grace. This alone makes it non-Christian. To support its erring doctrines, the Watchtower organization (which is the author and teacher of all official Jehovah's Witness theology), has even altered the Bible to make it agree with its changing and non-Christian teachings.
Typical with cults that use the Bible to support its position is a host of interpretive errors:

Taking verses out of their immediate context.
Refusing to read verses in the entire biblical context.
Inserting their theological presuppositions into the text.
Altering the Biblical text to suit their needs.
Latching onto one verse to interpret a host of others.
Changing the meanings of words.
Proclaiming some passages to be figurative when they contradict their doctrines.
Adding to the Word of God.
Additionally, the Jehovah's Witness organization requires of its members regular weekly attendance at their "Bible Study" meetings where they are repeatedly indoctrinated with anti-Christian teachings. This is done by reading the Watchtower magazine, following along with what it says, reading the questions it asks, and reciting the answers it gives. In other words, the Watchtower Organization carefully trains its members to let the Organization do their thinking for them. For confirmation of this, please read Does the Watchtower organization control the JW's thinking?
The Witnesses are told they will be persecuted when they go door to door teaching their doctrines. They are further told that this is simply the enemy fighting against God's organization because they are in "the truth." So, when someone disagrees with them, they are conditioned to reflect on what the Watchtower has told them. They then feel confirmed in being in God's true organization on earth (like all cults claim). They are strongly encouraged to have friends and acquaintances that are only JW’s, thereby keeping outside examination to a minimum. They are told to shun those who leave their group, that way, there is no way to see why someone has left and no way to find out that they are in error from those who have found the truth in Christ. They are conditioned to shy away from any real biblically knowledgeable person. An example of this is frequently found on the Internet. I was once banned from a Jehovah's Witness chat room after I not only answered their objections to the Trinity and deity of Christ, but challenged them in return. Subsequently, my name was passed around to all other Jehovah's Witness rooms where I was banned from them as well. This is a frequent occurrence on the Internet where the Jehovah's Witnesses are alive and well. It is obvious that critical examination of their doctrines is not encouraged by the Watchtower Organization.
The Jehovah's Witnesses consider themselves to be Christians because they believe they are serving the true and living God. Like many cults, they think they are the only true church on earth. Yet, they deny the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the personhood of the Holy Spirit, Jesus' physical resurrection, and salvation by grace through faith.
The Jehovah's Witnesses are discouraged from looking into Jehovah's Witness history or old Watchtower literature which is replete with contradictions, altered doctrines, and false prophecies. Instead, they are indoctrinated repeatedly against basic Christian doctrines (Trinity, deity of Christ, etc) and into the notion that they alone are the true servants of God and that all others are either in "Christendom" or simply unbelievers.
Primarily, the Jehovah's Witness organization is a mind control organization that uses its people to pass out literature and send in "donations" to the headquarters in Brooklyn, New York.

"Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible." The Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1967. p. 587.


The Watchtower organization of the Jehovah's Witnesses is a non-Christian organization that uses its people to promulgate false doctrines, sell a multitudinous amount of literature, and expand its grip into the lives of its members and their families.
It is a non-Christian cult.

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oneyearandcounting
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Linda could you or anyone else answer these questions for me.

How can a person who denies that Christ was and is God in the flesh be a Christian. You can't.

How can someone be a Christian when we are told to pickup our cross and follow Christ, but yet a person doesn't believe in the cross. You can't

How can a person be a Christian when the Prophets of the of the person have been wrong on every prophisy they have made. They can't.


How can a person be a Christian when they believe Christs sacrifice wasn't enough? But you still need your works. You can't.

How can a person be a Christian yet deny the exsitance of the Holy Spirit.You can't.


Born Again as far as the only thing being different is the verse in John 1:1 sorry your wrong reread it again. Or if you would like I can give you a list of 25 verses that have been changed or omitted from the JW Bible. Oh wait those same verses are missing from the NIV also. Thats right I said missing. So go on believing that JW's are saved all it does is put any who the Lord puts in your path believe they are ok and going to Heaven.

Me on the other hand I wil conseder them lost and do my best to show them the Gospel.

God bless

greg

--------------------
Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.

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Amen Betty!!!!!!!

Very well said.

2 Cor. 11:

3: But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4: For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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TEXASGRANDMA
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Carmela

I disagree. It is not enough to seek God, you must give your heart and life to Jesus. There are many seeking God today, but why to they not find him? It is because they do not want Jesus. They want a God they create. A God that approves of their livestyle. I have read about actors who talk about taking a little of each relegion and forming their own relegion. That is not the way to Jesus. If we could form our own relegion, would Jesus have had to leave Heaven to die for us. The biggest problem is when we form our relegion and our own god, this god we form is not Jesus and no better than praying to a wooden god. I am afraid that any who do not accept Jesus as their Savior will miss the rapture. Jesus said He was the Way. We cannot attempt to form our own way and still make the rapture. It is not a question of how nice we are. It is whether we are covered in the blood of Jesus.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Caretaker
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It is NOT the searching but the receiving of Christ which is the redemption and justification, Carmela.

Romans 10:

8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14: How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15: And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


The JW does not confess the Lord Jesus Christ as revealed in the Word, they follow a different jesus.

The JW does not believe in their heart that God hath raised Him from the dead.

The JW is lost and they have been led astray through heresy.

The Muslim, the Buddist, the Wiccan, the Animist, the Morman, the JW, etc, etc, etc, are all seeking "god". Are thay all redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb?

John 3:
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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Carmela
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Chaplain Bob, I just saw your post. Sorry for the delay.

My definition of church is any place where 2 or more are gathered. We are the church and in most cases, there is someone that is in authority of groups whether they are small or a large congregation.

Caretaker, I'm not saying anyone should join the witnesses. However, they are seeking God in spite of their confusion. Jesus said it's the heart of a man that is looked at. I don't believe He is going to come and choose all the people in one denomination, but several people from most of the denominations because they are people seeking Him. We are judged by what we know. They only know the false teachings they have been taught and they don't realize they are being led by the blind. However, they are a people searching to know God. They may have the rest messed up, but they are serving God.

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Carmela
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I definitely consider them a cult. Many people have told my friend Patience (yes that is her name lol) that she shouldn't be friends with me because I'm not a witness. They mainly believe in only fellowshipping with people of their own belief and as you said they are told to only read the Watchtower and other writings from their organization. Even the way they were founded is all wrong but they are still a people searching to know God, just as we are.

HisGrace, I agree that God's unconditional love is for everyone. I was talking about how we address each other. I will be more bold with a Christian but with non-Christians I am softer because they need to know that I love them unconditionally and that they are not going to be rejected because they disagree with me, which could later change as God gives them more revelation of Himself. Whether people agree with me or not, doesn't affect how I feel about them as individuals.

I will use HFHS as an example here. She and I disagree sometimes but I respect her a lot and I see that she has a lot of wisdom. I know that I can say it as it is with her because nothing I say is going to cause her to stray from Christianity.

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Caretaker
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Born Again writes:

Amen to that affirmation or conformation, sister Carmela, about the Jehovah Witnesses. They are certainly much more organized than we are. But then, most cults are also very well organized.

Could they be considered a cult because cults prohibit study of anything "outside of what everybody else in the cult is studying", namely only Jehovah Witness books and their own rendition of the Bible (which I have read, BTW, and does not differ much from our KJV Bible except in the Jesus was God and Jesus was a God John 1:1-2.

If the Jehovah Witnesses believe in the expiatory or exchange life of the suffering of Jesus Christ on behalf of their sins, then Jehovah Witnesses are saved--at least the ones that believe that to the end of their lives are saved, I think, because then they are just like me, using the identical ground for salvation that I use.

The LORD God of Israel bless all of us, BORN AGAIN [Cross]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.carm.org/jw/doctrines.htm


What do the Jehovah's Witnesses Teach?

1. There is one God in one person, Make Sure of All Things, p 188.
2. There is no Trinity, Let God be True, p. 100-101; Make Sure of All Things, p.386.
3. The Holy Spirit is a force, not alive, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp.
406-407.
4. The Holy Spirit is God's impersonal active force, The Watchtower, June 1, 1952,
p. 24.
5. Jehovah's first creation was his 'only-begotten Son'. . . was used by Jehovah in
creating all other things", Aid to Bible Understanding, pp. 390-391.
6. Jesus was Michael the archangel who became a man, The Watchtower, May 15,
1963, p. 307; The New World, 284.
7. Jesus was only a perfect man, not God in flesh, Reasoning from the Scriptures,
1985, pp. 306.
8. Jesus did not rise from the dead in his physical body, Awake! July 22, 1973, p. 4.
9. Jesus was raised "not a human creature, but a spirit." Let God be True, p. 276.
10. Jesus was born again, The Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1954, p. 682.
11. Jesus did not die on a cross but on a stake, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985,
pp. 89-90.
12. Jesus began his invisible rule over the earth in 1914, The Truth Shall Make You Free,
p. 300.
13. Jesus' ransom sacrifice did not include Adam, Let God be True, p. 119.
14. Their church is the self-proclaimed prophet of God, The Watchtower, April 1,
1972, p. 197.
15. They claim to be the only channel of God's truth, The Watchtower, Feb. 15,
1981, p. 19.
16. Only their church members will be saved, The Watchtower, Feb, 15, 1979, p. 30.
17. Good works are necessary for salvation, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 1,
pp. 150, 152.
18. The soul ceases to exist after death, Let God be True, p. 59, 60, 67.
19. There is no hell of fire where the wicked are punished, Let God be True, p. 79, 80.
20. Only 144,000 Jehovah's Witness go to heaven, Reasoning from the Scriptures,
1985, pp. 166-167, 361; Let God be True, p. 121.
21. Only the 144,000 Jehovah's Witness are born again. Reasoning from the
Scriptures, 1985, p. 76.; Watchtower 11/15/54, p. 681.
22. Only the 144,000 may take communion,
23. Blood transfusions are a sin, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 72-73.
24. The Cross is a pagan symbol and should not be used, Reasoning from the
Scriptures, 1985, pp. 90-92.
25. Salvation is by faith and what you do, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 1, pp.
150,152.
26. It is possible to lose your salvation, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp.
358-359.
27. The universe is billions of years old, Your will Be Done on Earth, p. 43.
28. Each of the 6 creative days of God in Genesis 1, was 7000 years long.
Therefore, Man was created toward the end of 42,000 years of earth's
preparation, Let God be True, p. 168.
29. They also refuse to vote, salute the flag, sing the "Star Spangled Banner," or
celebrate Christmas or birthdays. They are not allowed to serve in the armed
forces.
30. Satan was entrusted with the obligation and charged with the duty of
overseeing the creation of the earth, Children, p 55

))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

It is FAR MORE than John 1:1, that they have changed in the New World Translation of scripture, the JW Bible. I also have a copy BA. Any proof scriptures pertaining to the Diety of Christ have been mis-translated in their version to substantiate their position.

Like the Mormons, BA and Carmela, the JWs DO NOT follow the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible, but a different "jesus" of their own making.

Our Jesus is YHWH manifest in the flesh.
Their jesus is the archangel Michael, a created being.

Our Jesus rose from the dead bodily.
Their jesus was recreated.


Jehovah's Witnesses are very nice people, and very sincere in their belief's, but SINCERELY WRONG haveing been led into deception by the Watchtower heresy.

They were our neighbors when I was growing up. We studied with them. I thank God almighty for a praying Grandmother and a Mother who decided to believe the Bible and not the teachings of this false cult.

I have studied with both Jehovah's Witnesses and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,(Mormons), and they are BOTH cults and their theology ANATHEMA to a blood-bought born again child of the Living God.


2 John 1:
9: Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10: If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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Chaplain Bob
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quote:
However, we were told in the bible to go to church.
__________________________________________________

There is no verse of Scripture where Jesus instructs us to "...go to church...". There is a Scripture (Heb 10:25) that tells us not to get out of the habit of meeting together with other Believers but that does not have to be done in a "church" building. We can meet with other Believers anywhere and can appoint leaders of any group of Believers wherever they choose to meet.

--------------------
In His Service,
Bob Allen

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Amen to that affirmation or conformation, sister Carmela, about the Jehovah Witnesses. They are certainly much more organized than we are. But then, most cults are also very well organized.

Could they be considered a cult because cults prohibit study of anything "outside of what everybody else in the cult is studying", namely only Jehovah Witness books and their own rendition of the Bible (which I have read, BTW, and does not differ much from our KJV Bible except in the Jesus was God and Jesus was a God John 1:1-2.

If the Jehovah Witnesses believe in the expiatory or exchange life of the suffering of Jesus Christ on behalf of their sins, then Jehovah Witnesses are saved--at least the ones that believe that to the end of their lives are saved, I think, because then they are just like me, using the identical ground for salvation that I use.

The LORD God of Israel bless all of us, BORN AGAIN [Cross]

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TEXASGRANDMA
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HisGrace,
Goodnight and sweet dreams.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:

Do you deny that you must be born again to be saved?

Certainly not - that's not what I said. Anyway it's getting really late - night. [Smile]
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TEXASGRANDMA
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"God's unconditional love is the same for everyone, not just our own little "Ye must be born again" clique."
-------------------------------------------------
Are you making a clique of Jesus's own words?
Jhn 3:7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Do you deny that you must be born again to be saved?

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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HisGrace
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God's unconditional love is the same for everyone, not just our own little "Ye must be born again" clique.

As I Cor.12:12-14 says- For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

For the body is not one member, but many.

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Carmela
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HFHS, In ways I agree with what you said. I mean here in the forum, we are Christians. However, if--I will use the Witnesses as an example since my best friend is a Witness--if someone comes to this board, we can't tell what denomination they follow. So, if they come and see bashing, then it just pushes them away or causes them to retaliate so they may end up leaving. I've seen on this forum, members saying in posts regarding newer members...don't worry, you/they won't last long here. Then I start to wonder, how can we reach this person and show them the error of their ways if we are just bashing them or trying to get them to leave? See, sometimes people have said something to me and I will dispute it, but I never forget it. It happens more in my personal life than on boards, but I continue to reflect on what we discussed and sometimes I realize in the end that I was wrong and my thinking changes. I feel that as board members here, we should be doing the same for others. Helping them see where they may be wrong instead of arguing with them or pushing them away. I know that isn't always easy to do though because some people appear to never change, but I bet in time they will. As we teach others here, we can be praying that the Holy Spirit will help them see what is the truth.

I just feel public bashing causes more harm than good. At the same time, I do agree if someone is preaching falsely, they should be exposed but there is a right time and place for that occur.

I agree with BA. Just because the Witnesses believe some things differently then we do, doesn't make them unsaved people. In fact, sometimes I think we can learn things from them. For instance, you look at most Witnesse
congregations. They may not preach exactly as we believe, but they live very strict, disciplined lives for the most part, they are out weekly knocking on doors and trying to draw people to the Lord. We don't do that. I'm not saying we should all go door to door, but then again it isn't such a bad thing either. When you look at the Witness Congregation, you see most of them working toward Godly living, while if you do to most other Christian church, most of the people are a mess. I mentioned my best friend. She doesn't live a life that is as disciplined as the Witnesses believe they should live so there are some that still struggle but I don't believe there are as many Witnesses that go to church only because they grew up going or because it's a habit or a holiday. They fellowship in the middle of the week, the weekend, go door to door and probably more. The bible says we should fellowship with believers and hold each other accountable, they do that.

My point is that no church is perfect but the way to reach others is to set a Godly example, not bash them.

We can certainly agree to disagree here though.

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BORN AGAIN
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Dear sister helpforhomeschoolers, you write
quote:
these are different promises than the promised that were made under the law. Is that correct?
That is correct. The LORD twice made unconditional promises to Abram/Abraham, and to both unconditional promises the LORD swore by Himself to perform them unilaterally.

“many nations will come out of you”

Genesis 17:5
Neither shall your name any more be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made you.

“a multiplicity of people will come from you”

Genesis 32:12
And You said, I will surely do you good, and I will make your seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.
“possess the gate of their enemies”

Genesis 22:17
That in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and your seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

“king shall come out of you”

Genesis 17:6
And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come out of you.

Genesis 17:16
And I will bless her, and give you a son also of her: yes, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

“And their seed would inherit and live in the land of Canaan”

Genesis 12:7
And the LORD appeared to Abram, and said, To your seed will I give this land: and there he buildt an altar to the LORD, who appeared to him.

Genesis 22:16
And said, By myself have I sworn, says the LORD, for because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son.

These promises were made while Abraham-Isaac-Jacob were still sojourning in the land of Canaan, before going down to Misr Egypt to sojourn there in the land of Goshen.

The law, as you know, was set forth after their bondage in Misr Egypt in the land of Goshen, after the Exodus, whereas these are all Genesis promises outside the law entirely, neither do they depend on whether the holders of the promises--the house of Ephraim-Israel and the house of Judah—are being good or bad.

These unconditional promises are outside the law.

Dear sister Carmela, I liked this part
quote:
Now, a Jehovah's Witness came to my door this weekend and I invited her in and took her books to read and I will read them and tell her what the bible says opposed to what the Watchtower says when she return. However, if I just start telling her she is following the wrong church, she will stop coming and then I'm not in the place to witness to her.
I met a Jehovah witness woman at the hot springs last year and she gave me Isaiah in Spanish on which I could practice my Spanish while reading the Word, and we had good conversations together in the swimming pool.

I believe in being nice and friendly to Jehovah Witnesses just as I would to other persons, because the Bible says “Finally, do unto others as you would have others do unto you”, and that includes Jehovah Witnesses.

And indeed, if I have something to say or prove, then “let’s see it”, so that they may answer us. When it comes to preaching, any unsaved person can be preached to.

Mind you, I think that Jehovah Witnesses are already Christians. I do not think the Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) are Christians. But I do believe the Jehovah Witnesses are already Christians; their doctrine could use some help, but not enough to disqualify them from salvation through the expiatory or exchanged suffering of Christ on the cross. Jehovah Witnessed believe in that, I think, and they don’t deny that the word “Lord” is “Kurie”.

To me they are already Christians. Of the Catholics, those are Christians who have made a personal decision to accept the exchanged life of Christ and they are Christians. But among Catholics, the majority are not Christians in the sense that they have made that personal decision for Christ, and hence they are still in their sins.

God bless, preach to ‘em, baby. BORN AGAIN [Cross]

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helpforhomeschoolers
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BA! I love it when you are on a roll and dont even know it!!!!!

quote:
These unconditional promises are outside the law and are unilaterally guaranteed by the oath of the LORD only.
Yes, this is true!! And as you have so well in previous posts pointed out these are different promises than the promised that were made under the law. Is that correct?


and what of the church/Bride? are not also our promises promises that are outside the Law and unilaterally guaranteed by the oath of the Lord God only and that oath sealed by HIS Spirit?

This is an important thing. The promises made to the church are made to no other people at no other time past or future. Do you agree?

Carmela:

Yes, I agree that if it sends us to the scriptures to look for ourselves it is a good thing!!!

I have trouble with your second paragraph I am sure you already know. I respect what you say about one on one witnessing; In fact I believe that is how we are supposed to grow the local church.

But this is a discussion board and it is for the PURPOSE of discussing different points of view.

I also disagree that it is "running down" other faiths to speak the biblical truth. I believe that it is hate to remain silent while the enemy perverts the word of God and that perversion is passed around as truth....

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

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Carmela
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HFHS I know what you mean. I have made posts and they took a twist I certainly didn't expect them to take also. It's funny how we all see things so differently. Sometimes that is good because it causes all of us to consider what has been said and to spend time searching the word to find the truth for ourselves.

I find it offensive to run down other churches, even those I disagree with. I guess part of the reason is because by discrediting people's beliefs, it just causes them to retaliate against other Christians and I don't believe in that. Now, a Jehovah's Witness came to my door this weekend and I invited her in and took her books to read and I will read them and tell her what the bible says opposed to what the Watchtower says when she return. However, if I just start telling her she is following the wrong church, she will stop coming and then I'm not in the place to witness to her. So, I address people individually and then slowly expose the false teaching they are following, that way I have a chance of leading one more person to Jesus instead of just pushing one more person away. I feel that is arrogance when it's done in that way. I know we all witness the way we feel best, but Jesus often met people one on one. He told Zaccheus He was going to his house, he didn't publically run him down. That is how Zaccheus(however it's spelled) was saved.

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HisGrace, personally I don't care "where" any Topic is located; I can answer anywhere. But I know how you feel about it too. [1zhelp]

Here are some good parts, helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
We cannot judge if a person who identifies with Christianity is really trusting in Christ or in their religion to save them. If they are trusting in their religion to save them they are no more part of the body of Christ than a Jew or Moslem or any other religion.

Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus. This relationship does not depend on having all the correct theology but correct theology will result in more fruitful Christianity.

quote:
If there ever was a religion that could allow man to fellowship with God it was Judaism but the requirement was to keep all of God's law. The laws of Judaism did not achieve salvation because in man's fallen state he could never keep the whole law.
But what about the faith of Abraham which was before the law which could and did save Old Testament saints?

And also the unconditional promises of the LORD God to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and to Joseph-Ephraim and Judah, all those unconditional promises were outside the law, having nothing to do with whether Ephraim and Judah were good or bad.

The unconditional promises were made unilaterally by the LORD, and they depend only on the LORD for their guaranteed fulfillment.

Those promises are: "you shall become a multitude of people" (promise owned by Ephraim), "nations shall come out of you" (promise owned by Ephraim), "you shall possess the gates of your enemies" (promise owned by Ephraim), and "kings shall come out of you, including the Messiah" {promise owned by Judah).

These unconditional promises are outside the law and are unilaterally guaranteed by the oath of the LORD only. And in addition to that, there was the faith Abraham had of "seeing the promised Messiah up ahead in 30 A.D", while we look backwards in faith to 30 A.D.

God bless, [Cross] BORN AGAIN

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quote:
Many of the people in this forum are out to change us (that don't believe as some of you do) it seems. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't and there isn't anything wrong with that. I think that is why every once in a while someone tries to sneak in a post into this forum even though posts like this have a forum of their own.
[pound] [pound] [pound]

Out to change you? [roll on floor]

Only the Holy spirit can change any of us. I assure you that life is much to short.

I just wanted you to know that I did not try to "sneak" anything in here. I did not expect this post to cause this commotion. This author presented a view of the good and the bad and attempted to give an overall assessment. It is a comparison of common teachings or doctrines. I felt it was informational.

I frankly dont worry much about where something is posted I figure David has the move button if he does not approve of a location. I personally find any opportunity to look at the Bible verses the World an opportunity for Bible study.

One of the churches that I attend the pastor preaches his surmon and then says you will see this and that taught in regard to this subject and it is false because. I appreciate that because we every day meet people who dont open their Bibles much less meditate on the word that ask questions and I want to know how to answer.

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Hardcore a person doesn't have to read a post to respond intelligently. I was stating that I was replying to other replies made, not the post itself. That shows everyone reading that 1) my replies were not about the post and 2) if I didn't respond to something in the post, it's because I didn't read it. As far as you (Hardcore) are concerned, if it's considered unintelligent to reply to others and not to the post, so be it. I was being honest from the start as to not falsely lead someone.

Hardcore:
quote:
Our leader is Jesus Christ, not any man behind any pulpit. Contrary to popular belief within the "Christian" world these days, God's Word is indeed sufficient.
Does this mean that you don't go to church or listen to others teach the word of God? I agree with what you said, but most Christians belong to a church so if you want to nit pick, I don't mind. However, we don't have Jesus here with us right now so we take the word of the preacher, and then we should be checking to see if it lines up with God's word. So, we are usually under the authority of "man" but that man should be under God's authority and teaching the bible correctly. I didn't say we take out Jesus or that we put man's word above God's.

Hardcore:
quote:
Who is the "you" that you refer to? Who is teaching that the bible is full of errors?
How difficult is this to understand? If it applies to someone, then they will know because it's what they believe. "YOU" is all of those in this forum that are teaching this doctrine. If you agree with what I type, then it doesn't apply because you are not in disagreement with me. If I were to name one or 2 people, it would only apply to them. I was addressing all that believe the bible has errors.

quote:
+ All believe that original scripture is without error
This was in the post and it's what I was addressing. I see so often that you Hardcore and HFHS and others have put down other denominations as if to say what you (Hardcore) believe is correct and everyone is wrong. I once posted an excerpt from the Purpose Driven Life book and got all kinds of ridicule yet nothing I had quoted was wrong. Since then, I have finished reading the book and again I didn't find all of this false stuff that was posted in several forums here. Yet because people in this forum disagree (and most probably haven't even read the book for themselves but instead made a decision based on what others said) people in this forum attacked the post so the entire message and purpose of that post was totally missed. The message got tarnished with all of the posts that were attacking Rick Warren and had nothing to do with the quote I typed out.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carmella: ......but then again since you are teaching the bible is full or errors, there isn't any true doctrine to line up the spoken word with the True word of God I guess.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who is the "you" that you refer to? Who is teaching that the bible is full of errors?

Obviously, whomever believe this way, are the very people I'm addressing. I didn't post that list of things that are supposedly wrong with Evangelical/Pentecostal churches.

Many of the people in this forum are out to change us (that don't believe as some of you do) it seems. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't and there isn't anything wrong with that. I think that is why every once in a while someone tries to sneak in a post into this forum even though posts like this have a forum of their own. By us, I mean anyone that doesn't believe it's our job to bash other religions and prove them to be wrong. Just because some people feel it's their calling to expose false religions, doesn't mean that we need to read the posts and have it exposed in this section. For you defense, I do realize that what you are doing is being done because you want us to know what you believe to be correct and that what other's teach don't line up with what you believe. However, some of us don't feel that some of the teachers that are posted about are wrong. Since no one is 100% correct in what they teach, then it isn't wrong for us to listen to Joyce Meyers or Benny Hinn and then weed out the good from the bad for ourselves. I have listened to Joyce many time and I think she is actually being misquoted and misinterpreted quite often. However, I don't try to convince anyone that she has some good words to share with people. Many are healed and set free from things because of Joyce so her ministry isn't all bad as some would have people think.

I only use her as an example, I know she wasn't mentioned here.

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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
Oh my. To me it's a no brainer - it's a sin.
Praise God he does not choose us for our brains huh? There are lots of things that I see that are no brainers to me and you disagree.

Wont be the first time today that I have been accused of being brainless Hisgrace, and probably not the last time that you and I will disagree on what is or is not sin. There are somethings that are not specifically listed in the scripture as sin that can be sin to one man and not sin to another.

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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by hardcore:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
With all due respect Linda, don't you think this thread should be in the Exposing False Teaching forum?

There is a heading in that thread which reads.

Christian BBS Exposing False Teaching
To expose and debate false teachings of today! Please use this forum for this and not the Bible Study forum.


I would appreciate your kind consideration.

What are we to think of your above request for "kind consideration"?

You either shouldn't have posted the above, or you shouldn't have continued participating in this thread.

That's a very good point hardcore, but here I am [youpi]
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
hardly think that the sin against the body of fornication is comparable to smoking and in fact Paul says that EVERY OTHER sin that a man doeth is WITHOUT the Body, but the sin of fornication is against the body - flee fornication, know you not that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

I totally agree, but lets put the smoking comment back into the proper context in which it was written. Smoking was put on a list of areas in which Evanglists consider it to be a sin and the author disagreed. I believe the words were "Some have created lists of actions of the flesh that they say are sinful"

Linda you said "There are people who smoke and are not in bondage to smoking. There are people who smoke who for them it is not sin."

Oh my. [Eek!] To me it's a no brainer - it's a sin. [Eek!]

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helpforhomeschoolers
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I would be interested in answers to hardcore's questions too Carmela. I missed your post before.
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hardcore
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
With all due respect Linda, don't you think this thread should be in the Exposing False Teaching forum?

There is a heading in that thread which reads.

Christian BBS Exposing False Teaching
To expose and debate false teachings of today! Please use this forum for this and not the Bible Study forum.


I would appreciate your kind consideration.

What are we to think of your above request for "kind consideration"?

You either shouldn't have posted the above, or you shouldn't have continued participating in this thread.

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quote:
Originally posted by Carmela:
I don't think we should sit back and continue to let clothing get shorter and more revealing, it's already bad enough. That isn't religion, it's sin.

Yes, and waistlines are gradually getting lower. [Eek!]
I heard John Hagee once make this remark " What once took a whole day to do a spinning wheel, Silkworm can now do on his lunchbreak." [cool_shades]

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hardcore
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quote:
Originally posted by Carmela:
I'm only going to respond once because this post is in the wrong place and I only read replies and not the extremely long post.

If you didn't read the post, how can you comment on it intelligently?

quote:
Carmella: People today still need a leader and since no church is perfect, they choose the best church they can. You chose a church that believes as you do, and we do the same.
Our leader is Jesus Christ, not any man behind any pulpit. Contrary to popular belief within the "Christian" world these days, God's Word is indeed sufficient.

quote:
Carmella: ......but then again since you are teaching the bible is full or erros, there isn't any true doctrine to line up the spoken word with the True word of God I guess.
Who is the "you" that you refer to? Who is teaching that the bible is full of errors?

quote:
Carmella: No offense, but I have seen each of you say things that didn't line up with God's word also but I don't attack you because none of us are perfect, plus it doesn't do any good anyway. It only causes problems and when Christians start arguing whether in church or a forum, it's a bad witness to others.
Who is the "each of you" that you refer to? What specifically was said that didn't line up with God's Word? You offer blanket accusations to no one in specific, and then imply concern about causing problems and being a bad witness?

quote:
Carmella: I do agree however, that when we go to a church--and if you find the one that is absolutely perfect please let me know, but I don't think you will-- that we need to line up every word spoken with God's word. Of course since you want people to believe the bible is full of error, then I guess that doesn't leave any place for anyone to really seek the truth of what Jesus taught. After all, if there are errors, then why read the bible since we can't tell what is true, and what isn't.[/quote}

Again, who is the "you" that you refer to, and who is saying that the bible is full of error?

[quote]Carmella: My question is this. You are teaching everyone that the bible has errors so why should anyone read it? I mean afterall, if I were a new Christian and I took your word for it, then I would have to read the bible and wonder if it's even telling the truth. We are to teach people to read God's word, not to doubt it. Nothing you reply to me will make me feel like I can feel comfortable reading the bible since you say it has errors and you teach new Christians this before they even understand what Christianity is about or what the bible teaches.

Seriously. Who is is that you are accusing and on what basis? These are pretty serious accusations. Please clarify.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Amen to that Carmela, but modesty in dress will always reflect the condition of the heart dont you think? If we are wanting people to look at Jesus in us and not at us, we will not dress in a way that makes people to look at us with lust.

I think Brogden speaks more of people who would not let you in church in a pair of jeans or who would judge a young person by their long hair etc.

I heard a wonderful story once about a rather deseveled young man that walked into a church and to the front and sat on the floor in his ragedy dirty clothes and all the people were agasp. One of the ushers was moving to the front to get him up from the floor and bring him to a pew in the back when an elder in the church stood up... he was quite an elderly man and walked with a cane. He walked to the front and sat himself on the floor with this young man.

Needless to say the usher wuickly slipped into a seat himself!

I thought, yes! That is exactly what Jesus would do. Come just as you are, but come. That is what Jesus would say.

I grew up in the south and I tell you there are some churches where you would be removed from the building for cming to church without a tie.

I think this is the kind os thig brogden is speaking of.

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Carmela
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I don't follow religion, I have a relationship. There is a big difference.

I'm listening to the link you gave David. So far I like it but I'm not finished listening yet.

So far, I do disagree with one part though. He says clothing people were are relgion. Although I don't think it's right to judge someone by how they dress, the bible says we are to dress in a way that doesn't cause others to sin. I don't think we should sit back and continue to let clothing get shorter and more revealing, it's already bad enough. That isn't religion, it's sin.

That is a really good word David. Thanks for posting it.

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helpforhomeschoolers
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Amen David! An excellent word from Chip Brogden as usual!!!!!!
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quote:
How can we play God and even begin to fine-tooth comb which are heretical and which are not?
We should not play God. I dont think that we have to play God. I believe that the WORD is given to us to discern the heretical.


quote:

The Evangelical faith has many demoninations under its umbrella, with small variancs in each doctrine. I am sure there are many out there under the name of evangelism, who are false prophets, as it is in any faith.
I have found that under the Pentocostal and Baptist denominations, there are different factions that have broken away from the traditional church which give me grave concern.

I agree.

It seems to me that the author of this article, attempted to give a broad overall view of both the good and the bad looking at the various groups as a whole rather than any one particular group in microcosim.

quote:
However, we have to be careful which ones we are coming against if we are not sure they are God's anointed ones.
I have yet to meet the person that took the scripture from which this thought is derived in context. If you would like to discuss it; start a thread; it would be great Bible Study.

quote:
A lot of this is really exaggerated. But Smoking?? Smoking shouldn't even be on the radar screen.. What a disgusting, filthy addictive habit. I have seen people really bound up by slavery to that little white pollutant- filled tool of the devil. Our bodies are supposted to be temples of the Lord.
I hardly think that the sin against the body of fornication is comparable to smoking and in fact Paul says that EVERY OTHER sin that a man doeth is WITHOUT the Body, but the sin of fornication is against the body - flee fornication, know you not that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

There are people who smoke and are not in bondage to smoking. There are people who smoke who for them it is not sin.

Romans 14:22.........................Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

All things are for us legal, all things however do not edify and are not prudent.

There are many things like this. Do you eat a MacDonald's? Drink Diet Sodas? Mircrowave your food? Use a cell phone? Eat shellfish or fish without scales? Use plastics? Have Carpet in your home? All of these things are damaging to your body and/or to the environment. Some smoke and get lung cancer, others die of lung cancer never having smoked.

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R E L I G I O N!

Religion? - Click Here to listen to this now online. Only 6 minutes long.

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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:

STOP FOLLOWING CHURCHES AND PEOPLE

START FOLLOWING CHRIST

I don't think there is one person who wouldn't agree with that statement. However this thread is discussing churches. Since you are choosing to go down that path wparr what about those who follow Rev.WWW.?
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Within the Protestants there are about three hundred million Evangelicals and Pentecostal Protestants that have for the most part kept the true faith. The things listed below should not apply to them. I write about their own unique problems in a later paragraph.

How can we play God and even begin to fine-tooth comb which are heretical and which are not?
The Evangelical faith has many demoninations under its umbrella, with small variancs in each doctrine. I am sure there are many out there under the name of evangelism, who are false prophets, as it is in any faith. However, we have to be careful which ones we are coming against if we are not sure they are God's anointed ones.

I have found that under the Pentocostal and Baptist denominations, there are different factions that have broken away from the traditional church which give me grave concern.

quote:
Some have created lists of actions of the flesh that they say are sinful such as drinking, smoking, dancing, watching movies or TV or even listening to certain Christian music. Some do not even allow musical instruments in church but these same churches ignore actions of the flesh like gluttony, gossip and judging everyone as sinners who have the greater faith to believe that God does not abide by their list of man made forbidden activities
A lot of this is really exaggerated. But Smoking?? [Eek!] Smoking shouldn't even be showing on the radar screen.. What a disgusting, filthy addictive habit. I have seen people really bound up by slavery to that little white pollutant- filled tool of the devil. Our bodies are supposted to be temples of the Lord. [Eek!]
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