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» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Bible Topics & Study   » Jesus' Healing Ministry (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: Jesus' Healing Ministry
BORN AGAIN
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Dear HisGrace, I liked this Topic exchange between you and helpforhomeschoolers.

HisGrace wrote
quote:
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

In other words there was zero faith from both sides.

Actually, Jesus was acting on His faith which was 100%. He could heal someone who had 20% faith or 60% faith or 5% faith.

Upon seeing what Jesus could do, faith rose up in many onlookers, and so there most likely was even some percentage of faith in the onlookers being healed. But Jesus healed out of His own faith with was 100% faith, so Jesus could heal someone with 60% and also with 1% faith.

Well, that is a nice thought, BORN AGAIN, but if that was true, then how come Jesus could not do "many" miracles in Nazareth?

Was it because they wouldn't or couldn't worship him that He could not do many miracles there? Since they, more than anyone else knew that "this was the carpenter's son"?

Could Jesus have done miracels at Nazareth if He had wanted to, but He tied it always at least to some faith?

God bless, [Cross] BORN AGAIN

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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
You cannot conclude that those of little faith or no faith were not. Jesus did not attempt to heal any and fail because the one sick lacked faith.
There is no scriptural support to show that healing does not "work" in the absence of faith.

I am sure there is no scriptural support to say that it does work without faith either.

quote:
Note even the situation where the apostles were not able to cast out a demon. It was not the lack of faith of the one possessed, but the lack of faith of the one casting out that was issue,
In other words there was zero faith from both sides.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
so therefore if great faith worked - little faith didnt.
You can conclude that those with faith were healed.

You cannot conclude that those of little faith or no faith were not. Jesus did not attempt to heal any and fail because the one sick lacked faith.

There is no scriptural support to show that healing does not "work" in the absence of faith.

Note even the situation where the apostles were not able to cast out a demon. It was not the lack of faith of the one possessed, but the lack of faith of the one casting out that was issue, and even then, Jesus taught that God must approve it thus they would have had to fast and pray; note that Jesus did not need to fast and pray because Jesus was in one accord with the will of God.

Matthew 17:19 Then the disciples having come to Jesus by himself, said, ‘Wherefore were we not able to cast him out?’

20 And Jesus said to them, ‘Through your want of faith; for verily I say to you, if ye may have faith as a grain of mustard, ye shall say to this mount, Remove hence to yonder place, and it shall remove, and nothing shall be impossible to you,and this kind doth not go forth except in prayer and fasting.’

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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
HisGrace: It honestly is not my intention to split hairs. It is my intention to understand how you can claim that Jesus was unable to heal except that a person had faith to be healed. Jesus had power over all sickness and disease and could have healed a fish of ick if he so desired.

I am trying to get you to show me the scripture that says that the healing Power of God is limited by the faith of men.

You have said it is so; please back it up with scripture so that the rest of us can believe it is so.

There are many instances where Jesus said 'Thy faith hath made thee whole;' so therefore if great faith worked - little faith didnt.

Luke 8:49 While he was still speaking to her, a messenger arrived from Jairus's home with the message, "Your little girl is dead. There's no use troubling the Teacher now." But when Jesus heard what had happened, he said to Jairus, "Don't be afraid. Just trust me, and she will be all right."

Mark 5:34And he said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace. You have been healed.

~Let's remember that Jesus was still in the flesh when he walked on this earth. he had to rely on God's power the same way we do.
John 5:19Jesus replied, "I assure you, the Son can do nothing by himself. He does only what he sees the Father doing. Whatever the Father does, the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and tells him everything he is doing, and the Son will do far greater things than healing this man. You will be astonished at what he does.

John 14:0-10 Jesus replied, "Philip, don't you even yet know who I am, even after all the time I have been with you? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking to see him?
Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I say are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me.

Acts 1:1,2 In my first book I told you about everything Jesus began to do and teach until the day he ascended to heaven after giving his chosen apostles further instructions from the Holy Spirit.


~When Peter walked on the water, Jesus was right there, but still Peter sank because of lack of faith..


Matthew 14:25-33About three o'clock in the morning Jesus came to them, walking on the water. When the disciples saw him, they screamed in terror, thinking he was a ghost. But Jesus spoke to them at once. "It's all right," he said. "I am here! Don't be afraid."
Then Peter called to him, "Lord, if it's really you, tell me to come to you by walking on water." "All right, come," Jesus said.

So Peter went over the side of the boat and walked on the water toward Jesus. But when he looked around at the high waves, he was terrified and began to sink. "Save me, Lord!" he shouted.

Instantly Jesus reached out his hand and grabbed him. "You don't have much faith," Jesus said. "Why did you doubt me?" And when they climbed back into the boat, the wind stopped. Then the disciples worshiped him. "You really are the Son of God!" they exclaimed.

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Carmela
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HFHS That was my point. I was showing that Jesus didn't only heal by faith. He also healed non-believers.

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helpforhomeschoolers
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Carmela: None of them were christians. This happened before his death and resurection and ascension and before the Holy Ghost was given to the Church! Not one that Jesus healed was a Christian!

HisGrace: It honestly is not my intention to split hairs. It is my intention to understand how you can claim that Jesus was unable to heal except that a person had faith to be healed. Jesus had power over all sickness and disease and could have healed a fish of ick if he so desired.

I am trying to get you to show me the scripture that says that the healing Power of God is limited by the faith of men.

You have said it is so; please back it up with scripture so that the rest of us can believe it is so.

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HisGrace
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As you say Carmela "We can't put God in a box." My main purpose for this thread was to show that every case is different.
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Carmela
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There were several time when Jesus healed people and we don't know if they were saved or not. They believe Jesus could heal them but it didn't say if they were Christians or not.


Matt 9:27-30
27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.
28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.
(KJV)

Matt 12:22-23
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
(KJV)


Mark 8:22-26
22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.
23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.
26 And he sent him away to his house, saying, Neither go into the town, nor tell it to any in the town.
(KJV)

Many didn't say anything about giving God the praise until after Jesus caused them to see.

I can find more stories like this if I need to but I think this shows that Jesus healed people because he loved and cared about them, not because they were a part of the Kingdom.

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HisGrace
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Many think that it is almost a sin to have a mega-church, but in Jesus' short three-ministry he ministered to thousands at one time. Just think if he had continued - it would have grown and grown and grown!

Mark 6:44
And they that did eat of the loaves were about five thousand men.

Mark 1:41-45
Moved with pity, Jesus touched him. "I want to," he said. "Be healed!" Instantly the leprosy disappeared--the man was healed. Then Jesus sent him on his way and told him sternly, "Go right over to the priest and let him examine you. Don't talk to anyone along the way. Take along the offering required in the law of Moses for those who have been healed of leprosy, so everyone will have proof of your healing."

But as the man went on his way, he spread the news, telling everyone what had happened to him. As a result, such crowds soon surrounded Jesus that he couldn't enter a town anywhere publicly. He had to stay out in the secluded places, and people from everywhere came to him there.

It is interesting that we got the name 'evangelist' from Jesus' time -

2 Timothy 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

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You are starting to split hairs Linda.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another scripture showing that there were times Jesus' power was unable to flow because of the lack of faith.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Based on what do we determine that this is because God is unable or is limited by man's faith as opposed to because healing was the "Children's" bread and not for those who were not "children", lost sheep, believers?

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. 58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

I didn't know if you were giving me an answer or no Hisgrace. I didnt see anything in that scripture or in Isaiah that says that Jesus' power was UNABLE to flow because men lacked faith. Do you have some scripture to support this

It seems to me that the scripture supports that he did not heal those that were without faith because healing was not for them, but for the children of the Kingdom who are children because of faith. Faith then being the determining factor in whom healing was intended.

I also do not see the point of refering to Isaiah 53 "with his stripes" because all of this healing occured prior to HIS stripes so they must be different healings. Isaiah 53 "with his stripes we are healed cannot apply to the miracles of the Gospels as the miracles happend before the stripes.

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Carmela
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Those are very good points Robby. You said:
quote:
Some things I've been noticing about when Jesus healed people. Power went out from Jesus, but then people were healed by their faith (like when he healed the woman with the flow of blood).
I think this shows that we can't limit Jesus. He works in many ways. Also, He said that we can also do all things in "His" power. Jesus gave us the authority to do all of the same works that He did.
Luke 9:1-2
1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

I believe this same authority was given to us. Partly because once Jesus released the authority, it wasn't only the disciples that healed. Remember,
Mark 9:38-40
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

They weren't disciples, but they were able to move in Jesus' Power and Authority still.

quote:
Another thing is that when an evil spirit is cast out (like a house which is swept clean and things are put in order), it goes out to a void and waits, then come back multiplied. So if the Holy Spirit doesn't come in a fill that emptiness inside the body, then there is trouble.
This is another good point you made Robby. This shows me that 1) if I am going to cast a demon out of someone, I need to make sure they are discipled after so that the demons can't come back in multiple numbers. If I can't disciple them myself because I'm visiting a church or something, then I should make sure that they are hooked up in a church and with a Pastor or mentor that can teach them so the Holy Spirit fills that place and the demons can not return. I don't think I really thought about this much in this way until I read what you said. Thanks.

There isn't much we know about whether Jesus healed the disciples or not. Maybe most of the disciples lived in divine health so they didn't need to be healed. There is still so much we don't know. It's kind of like talking to people online. We can get to really know a part of each other, but there is this whole world of each other that we don't know anything about and in most cases never will. The same is true with God, Jesus and the bible. Until we meet our Maker, we will just never know or comprehend the fullness of who He really is.

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Robby
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Some things I've been noticing about when Jesus healed people. Power went out from Jesus, but then people were healed by their faith (like when he healed the woman with the flow of blood).

Another thing is that when an evil spirit is cast out (like a house which is swept clean and things are put in order), it goes out to a void and waits, then come back multiplied. So if the Holy Spirit doesn't come in a fill that emptiness inside the body, then there is trouble.

One more thing is there is no instance in the Gospels of Jesus healing a disciple. The number of miracles Jesus performed were endless, so it could have happened, but there just isn't any written record. Mary Magdalene would seem to be about the closest there is (she was healed of demons). She wasn't one of the 12, but she was a devout follower.

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HisGrace
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This scripture explains more clearly the scripture in Isaiah which says 'by his stripes we were healed". It shows that Isaiah was indeed referring to our physical infirmities.


Matthew 8:16,17(KJV) When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 'Himself took our infirmities, and bore our sicknesses.'

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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
Another scripture showing that there were times Jesus' power was unable to flow because of the lack of faith.
Based on what do we determine that this is because God is unable or is limited by man's faith as opposed to because healing was the "Children's" bread and not for those who were not "children", lost sheep, believers?

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. 58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Carmela:
Mark 9: 25-28 When Jesus saw that the crowd of onlookers was growing, he rebuked the evil spirit. "Spirit of deafness and muteness," he said, "I command you to come out of this child and never enter him again!" Then the spirit screamed and threw the boy into another violent convulsion and left him. The boy lay there motionless, and he appeared to be dead. A murmur ran through the crowd, "He's dead." But Jesus took him by the hand and helped him to his feet, and he stood up.
Afterward, when Jesus was alone in the house with his disciples, they asked him,"Why couldn't we cast out that evil spirit?" Jesus replied "This kind can be cast out only by prayer."

HisGrace you quoted the above scripture but I see a flaw in that version. What was actually said was that it takes prayer and fasting to cast out some demons.

Very important point Carmela. Out of the five versions I just looked up only two had 'prayer and fasting.'

quote:
From Carmela -I like how Jesus didn't follow any pattern. That is kind of what you said in your post HisGrace. Jesus did things differently as He healed and throughout His ministry. It helps me to remember to never put God in a box because sometimes I find it's easy for me to put Him a box, By this I mean to limit what He can and will do through and to others. Although I can't physically limit Him, I can prevent Him from using me completely by limiting what I think He can do.
"It helps me to remember to never put God in a box.' is a great way of explaining it Carmela. That shows how unconditional his love is and how He doesn't want us to be too legalistic in our views. It helps us to become more empathetic, because every case is different.
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Carmela
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Mark 9: 25-28 When Jesus saw that the crowd of onlookers was growing, he rebuked the evil spirit. "Spirit of deafness and muteness," he said, "I command you to come out of this child and never enter him again!" Then the spirit screamed and threw the boy into another violent convulsion and left him. The boy lay there motionless, and he appeared to be dead. A murmur ran through the crowd, "He's dead." But Jesus took him by the hand and helped him to his feet, and he stood up.
Afterward, when Jesus was alone in the house with his disciples, they asked him,"Why couldn't we cast out that evil spirit?" Jesus replied "This kind can be cast out only by prayer."

HisGrace you quoted the above scripture but I see a flaw in that version. What was actually said was that it takes prayer and fasting to cast out some demons. What was being said there was that prayer alone doesn't always work. So we are to be fasting and praying in advace because if someone asks for prayer we can't always say, "ok, wait a few days while I go fast and then I will come back and pray for you." We are to fast and pray regularly.

HFHS Jesus did do miracles, but I don't believe that He mainly did it to show people who he is. In a way He did, but He also said the people had little faith because the would only believe because they saw signs and wonders and miracles. He wanted them and us to believe by faith. If Jesus was healing to show his divinity, then I don't believe He would have told His disciples to go and heal also. Jesus was showing us by example that power and authority that He has given to us in His name.

I like how Jesus didn't follow any pattern. That is kind of what you said in your post HisGrace. Jesus did things differently as He healed and throughout His ministry. It helps me to remember to never put God in a box because sometimes I find it's easy for me to put Him a box, By this I mean to limit what He can and will do through and to others. Although I can't physically limit Him, I can prevent Him from using me completely by limiting what I think He can do.

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HisGrace
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Jesus healed according to the amount of faith they had.
Matthew 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

2 Corinthians 10:15
Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly.

I love the description of faith as given my Charles Stanley :

There are three levels of faith -
1.Little Faith -restless, struggling, wavering
2.Great Faith -reaching, maturing faith
Focused on God, not circumstances
Patient
3.Perfect Faith - resting faith
It's a Done Deal

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helpforhomeschoolers
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All of the healing that Jesus did, Jesus did before the cross; before the stripes that he did bear.

The miracles that Jesus performed were manifest in those who demonstrated faith because they were miracles for the purpose of showing that HE was the Son of the Living GOD and belief of that was demonstrated by FAITH on the part of the believer and resulted in their deliverence.

Jesus is teaching the Gospel of Grace in the natural. Belief by Faith in and of Christ leads to Redemption, Salvation, deliverance from sin.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

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HisGrace
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Another scripture showing that there were times Jesus' power was unable to flow because of the lack of faith.

Matthew 12:57,58 And they were deeply offended and refused to believe in him.

Then Jesus told them, "A prophet is honored everywhere except in his own hometown and among his own family." And so he did only a few miracles there because of their unbelief.

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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
Dear sister HisGrace, how are you. You write
quote:
John 9:1-3 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

2. He was made blind so that God could receive glory through his building of character, by giving the man strength in his adversity and through his eventual healing. {bold by BORN AGAIN}

Regarding the bolded part, I had always thought that the bolded phrase meant that the man was made blind so that God could heal him and thus the works of God were made manifest in the man.
As I was reading this scripture I was thinking the same thing. However, I was reminded in my Spirit of how character is built in our lives through adversity by drawing us closer to the Lord's strength in our infirmities.

This scripture doesn't seem to say that, but I was thinking that it probably would be true for this man in his blindess. His strengthening of character would be built throughout his blind state and would become even more fruitful through his healing.

Maybe I should have stuck to what the scripture says, but don't you think that my 'embellished' explanation would also be a result of his trial?

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BORN AGAIN
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Dear sister HisGrace, how are you. You write
quote:
John 9:1-3 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

2. He was made blind so that God could receive glory through his building of character, by giving the man strength in his adversity and through his eventual healing. {bold by BORN AGAIN}

Regarding the bolded part, I had always thought that the bolded phrase meant that the man was made blind so that God could heal him and thus the works of God were made manifest in the man.

But you think it meant that after the man was healed and strengthened by the Spirit it meant that he was made blind so that God could heal him at one point and then the man’s character would eventually show forth the glory of God?

As I said, I have always thought that it meant that the man was made blind so that the glory and power of God could be made manifest in the man when God healed the man, and this healing would be manifest also to the people watching. IOW, the man was strictly made blind so that God could heal him in front of a lot of people and thus God could show forth His character and ability, not the man.

John 11:40
Jesus said to her, Did I not say to you that, if uou would believe, you would see the glory of God?

John 11:4
When Jesus heard that, He said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.



God bless, BORN AGAIN [Cross]

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Let's look at Jesus' ministry and see how he healed the people of his day. Before some assume that I believe that everyone is sick because of sin, I would like to quote a portion of John 9

Vrs's 1-3As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life

~I learned three lessons from this scripture -
1. This man wasn't blind because of any sin in his life or sin in his parents' lives,
2. He was made blind so that God could receive glory through his building of character, by giving the man strength in his adversity and through his eventual healing.
3.Through God's perfect timing he did indeed receive his sight.

~Like the scriptures,we see every case is different in our lives. Sometimes our sickness is caused by sin; sometimes Jesus allows us to be sick in order to draw us closer to Him in our infirmities. Often he allows us to be sick in order to empathize with others with like sicknesses and to be able to help others. Sometimes we have to wait for God's perfect timing to be healed.

~Here is one case where sin was found by Jesus in his ministry.-

Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

James 5:16 Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results.

~There were times when demons prevented immediate healing and extra prayer was necessary -

Mark 9: 25-28 When Jesus saw that the crowd of onlookers was growing, he rebuked the evil spirit. "Spirit of deafness and muteness," he said, "I command you to come out of this child and never enter him again!" Then the spirit screamed and threw the boy into another violent convulsion and left him. The boy lay there motionless, and he appeared to be dead. A murmur ran through the crowd, "He's dead." But Jesus took him by the hand and helped him to his feet, and he stood up.
Afterward, when Jesus was alone in the house with his disciples, they asked him,"Why couldn't we cast out that evil spirit?" Jesus replied, "This kind can be cast out only by prayer."

~There were times that Jesus healed everyone present -

Matthew 12:15
But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

~And - there were times when he didn't heal at all because people didn't have enough faith to accept his message.

Luke 9:4, When you enter each village, be a guest in only one home. If the people of the village won't receive your message when you enter it, shake off its dust from your feet as you leave. It is a sign that you have abandoned that village to its fate."

~Sometimes people were healed just by their great faith alone -
Matthew 9: 18 As Jesus was saying this the leader of a synagogue came and knelt down before him "My daughter has just died," he said. "but you can bring her back to life again if you just come and lay your hand upon her."

~She later was healed.

~Sometimes, Jesus healed just because he chose to do so. Look at the story of Lazarus. He was in his grave for four days, and Jesus raised him from the dead.

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