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Topic: The potter and the clay.
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HisGrace
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posted
Thanks for your kind words Pleasemaranatha. I see you are new here, and am looking forward to reading your posts. ![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif)
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Pleasemaranatha
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Member # 5150
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posted
HIS GRACE.........I LOVE WHAT YOU SAID AND MY SPIRIT LEAPED IN AGREEMENT. ISN'T THE POTTER GREAT? I LOVE HIM SO MUCH AND FEEL SO HONORED TO BE HIS. THANKS FOR WRITING AND BEING AWAILABLE TO HIS WILL.
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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HisGrace
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posted
Lovely post Bloodbought - His will has to be our will. Like the little teacup, we have to be submitted to the potter's hand and his oven of purification.
The Little Teacup
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Bloodbought
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posted
Hello again brothers and sisters.
When one wants to see them selves as the Lord sees them, it’s a good idea to take His advice and watch the clay in the hands of the potter. The Lord wanted Jeremiah to realise that anyone on the Lords turntable was liable to get a light head as they were being moulded into the vessels He wanted them to be. Sometimes they might go off balance and start to wobble, but the potter is very patient because he has invested a huge amount and is determined to finish what he has begun. The clay is only a lump of dirt and has no power to do anything of its own free will. If it wasn’t for the potter the clay would remain a lump of dirt, but the potter picks it up and brings it through a process that it has no desire to go through, but sooner or later it is going to be a beautiful vessel admired by everyone.
This is how the Lord deals with His people. When He puts the fork in to raise the sod the stubborn sod makes no effort to help. It wants to stay as it is, but the potter says as the Lord said to Paul on the Damascus road, it is hard for you to kick against the pricks. Man has free will, but his free will says stay as you are, man has his back to God and doesn’t want any digging or moulding and to begin with doesn’t realise just what a masterpiece he could become by just yielding to the Lord’s will by faith.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Daytimeson23
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Member # 5146
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posted
Whether the clay is made marred or not, it is made in the image of God and therefore makes it accountable. Although the marred clay cannot do anything to fix itself, being the fact that today it can choose not to kill, which in itself is not a good work because it is done out of selfish motives not for a love for God. But when they choose to sin they are absolutely accountable.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Oct 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
Dear sister HisGrace, I found this a curious statement of yours quote:
God has given us a free will to make our own choices. If the clay becomes marred in the potter's hands we have to bear the consequences.
Why is it my fault if the clay becomes marred in the potter's hand?
How is it "my free will" that the clay became marred in the potter's hand?
I just noticed your post BA. The Bible says the clay can become marred in the potter's hands - it must do something wrong, as explained further down in Jeremiah.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
I'll have more to add later.
AND HEY - I don't cook clay turkeys ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) - it happened to be very delicious!!
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
Dear sister HisGrace, I found this a curious statement of yours quote:
God has given us a free will to make our own choices. If the clay becomes marred in the potter's hands we have to bear the consequences.
Why is it my fault if the clay becomes marred in the potter's hand?
How is it "my free will" that the clay became marred in the potter's hand?
But what I liked about the bloodbought scenario was that marred clay was made into a "lesser vessel", "less delicate", something "more functional" than "beautiful".
The point I was making in my earlier posts, HisGrace while you've been working on your clay turkey, was that like if we humans make robots with intelligent design, there could be a point where the robots could become "independent".
And this is precisely what happened with us clay humans--when God made clay humans (to use the potter's analogy) He made them so complex with sufficient intelligent design that clay humans could "walk about on the earth" and "could choose to make weapons" and could "do all sorts of stuff".
At that kind of complexity of clay making the clay "becomes responsible for its actions", whereas clay as a teapot is, well, not that responsible for its actions.
Teapots cannot sin, but people can, and did. And that's why we need Jesus's sacrifice of suffering on the cross for us as payment for our sins, so that we may go free and become Christians.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
"clay turkeys are good"
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HisGrace
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posted
Sorry I haven't gotten back to you guys sooner, but it is Thanksgiving week-end in Canada, and I have been doing the turkey thing.
God has given us a free will to make our own choices. If the clay becomes marred in the potter's hands we have to bear the consequences..
Reading further down into Jeremiah 18 -
"Then the LORD gave me this message: "O Israel, can I not do to you as this potter has done to his clay? As the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand. If I announce that a certain nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down, and destroyed, but then that nation renounces its evil ways, I will not destroy it as I had planned. And if I announce that I will build up and plant a certain nation or kingdom, making it strong and great,but then that nation turns to evil and refuses to obey me, I will not bless that nation as I had said I would.
Therefore, Jeremiah, go and warn all Judah and Jerusalem. Say to them, `This is what the LORD says: I am planning disaster against you instead of good. So turn from your evil ways, each of you, and do what is right.' " But they replied, "Don't waste your breath. We will continue to live as we want to, following our own evil desires."
Then the LORD said, "Has anyone ever heard of such a thing, even among the pagan nations? My virgin Israel has done something too terrible to understand! Does the snow ever melt high up in the These can be counted on, but not my people! For they have deserted me and turned to worthless idols. They have stumbled off the ancient highways of good, and they walk the muddy paths of sin. Therefore, their land will become desolate, a monument to their stupidity. All who pass by will be astonished and shake their heads in amazement at its utter desolation. I will scatter my people before their enemies as the east wind scatters dust. And in all their trouble I will turn my back on them and refuse to notice their distress
As believers we can choose to give the potter free rein of our will. Our mind becomes his mind and we can submit to his moulding and shaping into his masterpiece. Our every decision is under his guidance.
2 Cor. 4:7 But this precious treasure--this light and power that now shine within us--is held in perishable containers, that is, in our weak bodies. So everyone can see that our glorious power is from God and is not our own.
Phil 4:7 If you do this, you will experience God's peace, which is far more wonderful than the human mind can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and MINDS as you live in Christ Jesus.
1 Cor. 2:16 How could they? For,"Who can know what the Lord is thinking? Who can give him counsel?" But we can understand these things, for we have the mind of Christ.
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
You're right, bloodbought, if I said it in that way, I misspoke.
Only the first Adam and Eve and Jesus Christ had the ability not to sin and the ability to sin.
Sorry about that, BORN AGAIN
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Bloodbought
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posted
I would like to hear from HisGrace on your point BORN AGAIN, but I don’t accept that we have the ability not to sin; the only one who had that ability was Jesus.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
We have no ability. All our ability comes from God.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
Dear sister HisGrace, I love you and want to thank you for all the support that I have received from you over the last years. May the LORD God of Israel bless your family.
You write to BORN AGAIN quote:
I think, as Bloodbought says, the scripture in Jeremiah is speaking about the spiritually-committed believer.
We just have to keep spinning around that old wheel until we completely die to self and say "Ok Lord, do what you have to do. I'm totally in your hands."
But you completely miss the point of my question.
I'm asking, "At what point does the clay 'become responsible for its own actions'"?
In other words, since we are dealing with an analogy here, are rocks also made of God's "clay" and trees are also made of God's "clay".
Assuming that is a "yes", clay as trees cannot really "sin". But "clay" as "people" has the the "ability to not sin" and the "ability to sin".
Like the notion of "intelligent robots starting to think, and act by themselves."
I don't expect a frying pan to sin, but I know that clay as humans have the ability to not sin and have the ability to sin. And the Bible says that "all have sinned".
Dear sister HisGrace, I brought the "intelligent clay" issue because before I was a Christian, I was a New Ager but I liked Christians, and the Christian leader asked me, "do you believe that Jesus died for your sins?", and I did not believe that Jesus died for my sins. Why?
Because I said, "whatever my life became, that it became, how can I be held responsible for whatever it became?"
Romans 9:18-20 (KJV)
18Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He wills, He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?
20 No, but, O man, who are you to reply against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him who formed it, Why have You made me thus?
May the LORD God of Israel bless us all on this CBBS, I am BORN AGAIN by the of Yahshua-Jesus
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
So at what point, if any, does the clay become "responsible" if the clay is formed into something as complex as a loose-running, decision-making human being? That was my point, HisGrace.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
I think, as Bloodbought says, the scripture in Jeremiah is speaking about the spiritually-committed believer.
We just have to keep spinning around that old wheel until we completely die to self and say "Ok Lord, do what you have to do. I'm totally in your hands."
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
Does the clay have any responsibilities in this? In other words, if the clay is whatever clay it is, can the clay be held responsible for ANYTHING?
The point I was making, sister HisGrace, that a clay pot or a clay stone or a clay piece of iron commits no sin.
But a clay human being is a sophisticated, loose-running, decision-making entity on the earth which has even developed "weapons of mass destruction" and is such a complex clay product that clay humans can even "sin" and "mar itself", so to speak.
So at what point, if any, does the clay become "responsible" if the clay is formed into something as complex as a loose-running, decision-making human being? That was my point, HisGrace.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
This is what Jeremiah would learn about how God is handling and shaping each of His people. He is the potter and we are the clay. We are on the wheel, but He is in full control with His fingers on us at all times so we don’t spin out of control. If we pull against Him and we were not in the centre of the wheel, He would have to slow down and work a little harder with His fingers to get us back on track. This is why I submit to Him because the day is coming when all His masterpieces which didn’t’ have any input into their design, He will present before the Father.
This is exciting news. If we become pliable in his hands and allow him to shape and mould us, we can become his perfect masterpiece.
Isaiah 64:8 And yet, LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, and you are the potter. We are all formed by your hand.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Under what circumstances does the clay become responsible for its outcome? When the design of the clay means the clay can walk, talk, hear, see and decide?
All of God’s people are in His hands in the same way the clay is in the potters hands. No one can say to Him why did you make me this way? If one has a temper, that is a defect in the clay and the Lord might need to start re moulding him into another vessel where he will be in less contact with people because he will chip easily, but this is the potter’s decision, not the clay.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
Under what circumstances does the clay become responsible for its outcome? When the design of the clay means the clay can walk, talk, hear, see and decide? God bless, BORN
I'm trying to figure out your point BORN AGAIN???
BTW that is an excellant post Bloodbought - it is so true.
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BORN AGAIN
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Under what circumstances does the clay become responsible for its outcome? When the design of the clay means the clay can walk, talk, hear, see and decide?
God bless, BORN
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Bloodbought
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Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
What spiritual lessons could Jeremiah learn from a tour of the factory where clay vessels were being produced on the wheels of the potter?
He would learn the process through which the clay would go through before it would be good enough to put on the wheel and shape into a useful vessel. First of all the clay would be dug but it is not ready for the wheel until it is put through a lengthy refining process. It is wet and run through a sieve to remove any hard lumps. Then it would be tramped to improve its plasticity, but it is still not ready for the wheels until it is stored in water for about six months. After that, the potter takes the clay in his hands and puts it on the wheel and as he begins to pedal the clay begins to spin. The potter must keep his fingers on the clay while it is spinning to mould and shape it into the vessel he desires it to be, if he removes his hands from the clay it would spin out of control and splash onto the floor. Sometimes the clay can become marred even in the hands of the potter, this is not the fault of the potter, it is because of a defect in the clay, so he has to start over again and make it into another vessel that perhaps would be more ornamental than for practical use, but each piece of clay the potter places on the wheel, he works on with patience until he has a vessel where his own unique stamp of workmanship can be seen in each vessel and they are ready to be presented as the finished product. His vessels would be used for different purposes, some of them would be strong and could stand a lot of abuse; you could drop them on the floor and they wouldn’t even chip, others would need to be handled more carefully and there would be others like fine china that you could scarcely touch without a disaster.
This is what Jeremiah would learn about how God is handling and shaping each of His people. He is the potter and we are the clay. We are on the wheel, but He is in full control with His fingers on us at all times so we don’t spin out of control. If we pull against Him and we were not in the centre of the wheel, He would have to slow down and work a little harder with His fingers to get us back on track. This is why I submit to Him because the day is coming when all His masterpieces which didn’t’ have any input into their design, He will present before the Father.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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