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Author Topic: Proof Please
HisGrace
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Accusations have been made on this board that Joyce Meyer preaches with serious doctrinal error, and Benny Hinn teaches heresy and false doctine "that can be proven scripturally."

Now can someone please provide proof of these accusations with the own words of these two individuals - no second-hand innuendo please.

Without mentioning any Dateline-type programmes or any hearsay sites, please would like this information from Benny Hinn's and Joyce Meyer's own sites with their own words.

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TEXASGRANDMA
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I am not saying yay or nay, but check this out for your self:


http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/bhinn.html

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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Favor Minded
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I do not believe there is anything wrong with Joyce, at all. There is no evidence of many of the televangelists who come underattack - Benny Hinn, on the other hand, is different.

I personally have knowledge of $50 admission FIFTY BUCKS!! and an inability to even listen nearby - Literally kicked off the property by Hinn bad guys who told people to get off the property, out the lots, etc - Anyone who could not pay to get in, HAD to leave immediately and they were handled and treated like thieves and thugs.

Some recent quotes from Benny -
I am a little God

There are really 9 gods

This was a very recent transcript regarding someone investigating his lifestyle on the road.

Quit attacking men of God, by name. Somebody is attacking me because of something I am teaching. Let me tell you something brother, you watch it! You know, I don't mind if they attack Benny and the way he is, and the way he walks, but don't attack the anointing on my life. Don't attack this man of God. There is a group here in California that thinks they are the judgement seat of Christ. They judge you for everything you do! Listen here fella. Let me tell you something, you are not my judge, Jesus is my judge! You walk around with your stiff lip and collar on your neck. Dear God in heaven, I wish I can just... You know, I have looked for one verse in the Bible, I just can't seem to find it, one verse, that says, 'if you don't like them kill them.' But there is nowhere in the Bible that says it. I am sorry I am not exactly the normal kind of guy, you know, I'm from Israel. Sometimes I wish God would give me a Holy Ghost machine gun, I'll blow your head off!

I used to believe in the ideal that we do not stand against anyone God had used mightily however - Benny is quickly beginning to paint himself as looking like the upcoming False Prophet who will stand with the AntiChrist.

I pray only good things and blessings on his life, but the $11,000 a night hotel is FACT, as is many other things - And it is not that he should not be allowed the good things but his has proven extreme even more so in these last couple of years.......

Just my opinion - We need to lift him up in prayer -

Joyce is awesome....

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SoftTouch
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I tried that Betty [Frown] Remember? I pray what happened to me here (back then) doesn't happen to you! It really sent me reeling... I had to take a few months off to examine myself because I became offended by what others were calling me. PRAISE GOD!!!! He brought me through that ordeal and taught me much!

His Grace, As for finding false teaching on his website, you won't. They wouldn't put it on there... I checked.

You have to CAREFULLY LISTEN to his preaching to catch the errors. Others have and have written articles about it.

This is why we have discernment ministries. God gave us Watchmen to also warn us of Wolfs. Shepards ususally have watch dogs... that's the role these discernment ministries fulfill.

(Disclaimer - I'm not saying that ALL Discernment Ministries are without their own errors.)

--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

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helpforhomeschoolers
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Sister HIS Grace; I am going to address your question. I have been praying about how since you spoke to me about my comment of Meyer.

Please be patient with me this is going to take some time. I have been working on my response this evening; I will do my best to post something tomorrow; but this will likely come in installments and I do have a life, kids (all 3 at home this week)and several businesses and a husband that travels; so be patient with me please. [type] [Kiss]

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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
His Grace, As for finding false teaching on his website, you won't. They wouldn't put it on there... I checked.

This is exactly my point. The web is perfect medium for a heretic to spread their message - many of them do it. There should be all sorts of clues in a Statement of Faith or messages to trip him up. BTW you will find all kinds of mission work that they do in other countries on their websites.

quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
You have to CAREFULLY LISTEN to his preaching to catch the errors. Others have and have written articles about it.

Favor Minded has provided some personal evidence of BH's unusual behaviour, but the point I am trying to make is that I have not personally witnessed anything unusual in his doctrine. Forgive me, I am trying to be objective and am not trying to be too difficult, but I believe in going to the source and not reading biased "written articles about it", or seeking out sites with titles such as "Babblings of Benn Hinn". How reliable would such a source be?

To give you an example how his words have been twisted - There has been this rumour going around that BH said Kathryn Kuhlman talked to him from the grave and that he was getting into the occult. I checked out his own words and he said that she appeared briefly in a vision while he was sleeping. Huge difference when you go to the source.

quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch: That is why we have discernment ministries. God gave us Watchmen to also warn us of Wolfs. Shepards ususally have watch dogs... that's the role these discernment ministries fulfill.
On the Dateline piece there was a pipe-smoking preacher "watchman" with all kinds of words of wisdom about Benny Hinn and I didn't have too much faith in him.

I agree with Favor Minded that Joyce Meyer is awesome. I have watched hours of her sermons and have always find they really speak to us in revealing our own failings.

Sister Linda I know I asked you to back up your statments re Joyce Meyer, and perhaps you haven't found the words or the time to get back to me, because maybe the Lord doesn't want you to say anything. Should we just let it rest?

I have praying about Benny Hinn and I have asked the Lord what I can say to His people about this embarrassing expose and only one word is coming to mind "Love". Let's just pray for Brother Hinn and not drag him through the mud anymore. Leave God's job up to him.

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yahsway
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Greetings HisGrace, You can order The Great Apostacy from the Christian Sentinel and it has footage of Benny Hinn and what he says. Also from letusreason and deception in the church.

Or just watch and listen to him on his show or tbn. Pay attention to what he says and take it back to the scriptures. I think you will be surprised. You will never believe it until you seek it out yourself. I promise you if you know your scriptures, you will indeed see inconsistences in Hinns claims.

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HisGrace
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Addressing the "I am a little God" statement, Benny Hinn is not holding himself up above anyone else when he says he is a mini god. He is including all believers in that statement. He is really using a poor choice of words. I think I know what he means, and it isn't quite the way it sounds.

I believe he means that we have to become so spiritually infilled that we become totally dead to the flesh. Therefore, we become completely spiritually consumed and accessible to God's mighty power.

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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
Addressing the "I am a little God" statement, Benny Hinn is not holding himself up above anyone else when he says he is a mini god. He is including all believers in that statement. He is really using a poor choice of words. I think I know what he means, and it isn't quite the way it sounds.

I believe he means that we have to become so spiritually infilled that we become totally dead to the flesh. Therefore, we become completely spiritually consumed and accessible to God's mighty power.

That may be so. What do you think he meant when he said God is a trinity and each person of the trinity is a trinity so there are nine gods?(correction) He said “nine of them”
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HisGrace
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Bloodbought, I believe what he is saying is -

Father, plus Son and Holy Ghost = 3

Son, plus Father and Holy Ghost = 3

Holy Ghost, plus Father and Son = 3

Grand total being 9

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Bloodbought
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I see what you mean HisGrace.

But unless you say that there are three different sets of Father Son and Holy Ghost, there are still only three no matter what order you place them in.

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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
I see what you mean HisGrace.
But unless you say that there are three different sets of Father Son and Holy Ghost, there are still only three no matter what order you place them in.

I have to agree that his explanation is very unusual. Keeping it at three makes more sense.
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LaurieFL
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Do some searches on "word of faith" to find problems with that type of doctrine which teaches prosperity on earth to all believers, no illness, no disease, no accidents can befall a "true believer", and that our words have power to bring about things we want (akin to witchcraft).....very false teaching, that seeks a kingdom on earth now and lacks the understanding that our kingdom is in the future, with Jesus Christ.
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HisGrace
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quote:
I am stealing a quote from BORN AGAIN from another thread -
As for heresy hunting, I have stated elsewhere that I find it dangerous business and heresy hunting probably requires a very mature and experienced Christian to do it properly.

I agree. To engage in such activity for myself personally, makes me very nervous. Unless I see some blatant obvious doctrine that goes totally against the scriptures, I will not comment negatively about any evangelist.

I have cited a couple of instances where Benny Hinn was misquoted. I have questions about him too, but I feel in my spirit that I must be careful what I say about him. (BTW I have never contributed to his ministry.)

Just WHAT IF I publicly accuse him of being a heretic and he basically is anointed by God? This would grieve God and perhaps I would be opening the door for devil with my words. If I have opened the door to the devil, who knows what area of my life he may attack.

I can't risk my salvation by using idle words.

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HisGrace
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I found this scripture on another thread and it sums up perfectly what I have been trying to get across. We have to be very careful of our words.

These words are from Jesus himself -
Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

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yahsway
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HisGrace, What does the word idel mean and how is it used in the context Yeshua spoke of?
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
HisGrace, What does the word idel mean and how is it used in the context Yeshua spoke of?

The dictionary defines 'idle' as lacking a sense of restraint or responsibility.

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

I believe that scriptures is telling us that we should use great responsibility for the words we speak so that we are not unwittingly slandering someone else's reputation. Sometimes we quote second-hand opinions that are not based on hard facts. We are bringing judgment on ourselves for such irresponsibilty.

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Bloodbought
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I know it is possible for us to sometimes quote second-hand opinions that are not based on hard facts. We need to be sure of the facts and if someone is teaching what is clearly heresy, I don’t think we should oppose it being highlighted because we think they may have an anointing.

Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 1 Cor 5:6.
One bad member infects the whole congregation and in the same way a little false teaching mixed in with truth contaminates the entire message.

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SoftTouch
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AMEN Bloodbought

quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 1 Cor 5:6.
One bad member infects the whole congregation and in the same way a little false teaching mixed in with truth contaminates the entire message.

THIS Is Absolute Truth!

--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

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HisGrace
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And an amen here in the balcony!! [wave3]
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Mr Ron
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Dear His Grace,

I'm new on this board, and I know that Benny Hinn is very intelligent. He has to be to con so many folks from their money.

But you explain his '9 god ' statement as-

Bloodbought, I believe what he is saying is -

Father, plus Son and Holy Ghost = 3

Son, plus Father and Holy Ghost = 3

Holy Ghost, plus Father and Son = 3

Grand total being 9

That is the silliest thing I have ever heard!
Are we as Christians supposed to be that ignorant? If so, why did the Creator give us a brain?

Have a great day,

Mr Ron

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HisGrace
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Welcome Mr. Ron. I figured out that is the way Benny Hinn sees it. I personally would never use such an explanation.
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yeshuaslavejeff
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Yahweh desires those who seek Himself. Yeshua said that if you are willing to obey, Elohim Himself will teach you. The disciples in the first few centuries not just believed this, they lived it.
Today, mostly false teaching and false examples are all over the tv/internet/books, for the whole world WILL BE DECEIVED, EXCEPT FOR THE ELECT-WHO THEMSELVES JUST BARELY ESCAPE DECEPTION. The whole world has been deceived for so long, no true scale can be found publicly-false scales everywhere, including in and from almost all pulpits(bh and bg most notably)
For what I think is the most accurate view of early believers lives, truth and scripture, see and read "will the real heretics please stand up" by bercot. This by itself exposes as false most modern 'word' so-called 'ministries' & 'churches'.
Not by itself, though, in expounding, exploring and bringing to Light Truth of Scripture always known(ie not new stuff), little taught or lived today.

--------------------
1Peter4:1,2 Yeshua suffered physical suffering:disciples have same mind/ willingness to share shame/physical suffering with Yeshua/His people.
Biblio:"willtherealhereticsplease standup?"byBercot(churchTruth)

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helpforhomeschoolers
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Amen!Welcome and I like your screen name. [clap2]
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HisGrace
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When I read posts like this, it makes me upset. This baby Christian was really inspired and uplifted by this preacher, but because of the influence of others she stopped watching this person on TV (not Benny Hinn BTW). I got this from another Board.


"After reading the responses here, I can say that I am very relieved and comforted now. I can now go back to watching *****

I had stopped last August, because I was told that *** did not preach in line with the word of God. I had learned many things the wrong way from watching too many televangelist as I was a new baby in Christ, and took another's advice for I didn't want to learn more that was wrong about our Lord.

I always loved *** and could relate to *** and was surprised and sadden that I was advised to not watch *** anymore!!!!

Well Thank you Ladies!!!! I will be watching and being lifted up again by *** sermons and books!!!"


I happen to agree with this woman about this certain speaker. I have been greatly encouraged by the sermons and as a mature Christian, I refuse to be influenced by what others say. I might also add that I didn't make any comments on that thread, so she wouldn't have been influenced by any of my remarks.

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yeshuaslavejeff
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First, what does Scripture say? -

"Before listening to someone, observe their life daily. If their life daily lines up with Scripture,
then you can listen, .." still "..examine everything, proving what is said from Scripture." (like the Bereans)

Second, what does Scripture say about the current prosperity message? : see "will the real heretics please stand up" by bercot

...i.e. the current very popular prosperity message was called heresy by the early believers, the ones who knew first or second hand Yeshua and the apostles who lived and wrote the New Testament.

Third, what effect does listening to a tv personality have -

..does it lead to taking up the executionstake daily('cross' is not found in NT)?

..does it lead to becoming Yeshua's disciple who makes disciples?

..before the first two above, does listening to any tv evangelist lead to brokenness and repentance- turning to G-d to be healed and made whole?(with humility and joy and freedom)

or

...is it having ones ears tickled,

...being able to sit on the couch or stay home,
not seeking the lost and the hurting and the brokenhearted, especially NOT LAYING DOWN YOUR LIFE FOR OTHERS AS YESHUA DID?


IF someone is able to be a better disciple, to live better, repent better, help others better, serve G-d better,

after watching some tv person,

then continue.

But if they are becoming a better couchpotato,
more comfortable without radical lifechange that Yeshua demands,

then repent.

G-d is Righteous Judge of all.

--------------------
1Peter4:1,2 Yeshua suffered physical suffering:disciples have same mind/ willingness to share shame/physical suffering with Yeshua/His people.
Biblio:"willtherealhereticsplease standup?"byBercot(churchTruth)

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Caretaker
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.yeshuaslavejeff:

does it lead to taking up the executionstake daily('cross' is not found in NT)?

____________________________________________________

The word "Cross" is found in the Word of God, unless it has been translated out by those with an agenda.


John 19:
19: And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
20: This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.

Matt. 27:
32: And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.

Mark 15:
29: And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,
30: Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
31: Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
32: Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Luke 23:
26: And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.

Matt. 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matt 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 10:21
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

John 19:31
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

1 Cor. 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

1 Cor. 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Gal. 5:11
And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.


N 1968 one of the greatest archaeological finds occurred. In an ossuary from burial caves at Giv’at ha-Mivtar in Jerusalem were found the remains of a man, aged 24-28, who had been crucified and died near the year A.D. 70. Though thousands upon thousands had been crucified in antiquity, this was the first time that archaeologists had discovered actual physical remains of a victim. The bones in the ossuary showed the man’s legs had been broken deliberately after the arms and legs had been nailed to a cross of olivewood. The single nail that had pierced the feet had penetrated the ankle bones and could not be extracted before burial.

The description of this archaeological find is given in "Anthropological Observations on the Skeletal Remains from Giv’at ha-Mivtar," written by N. Haas of the Department of Anatomy at Hebrew University. His article was published in the Israel Exploration Journal in 1970. Haas describes the scratch marks the nails made on the arms of the executed man:

"The scratch is an artifact produced on fresh bone by compression, friction, and gliding. This artifact, in our interpretation, is the osteological evidence of the penetration of the nail in the interosseous space between the radius and the ulna. The abrupted proximal edge of this scratch is the evidence of the first direct contact of the nail with the radial bone. The smoothly-shaped, vanishing slope is a secondary testimony, explained as the further result of the slight and gradual increasing movement of friction, rotation and gliding between the radial bone and the nail, towards the end of the crucifixion. . . .

"The whole of our interpretation concerning the position of the body on the cross may be described briefly as follows: The feet were joined almost parallel, both transfixed by the same nail at the heels, with the legs adjacent; the knees were doubled, the right one overlapping the left; the trunk was contorted; the upper limbs were stretched out, each stabbed by a nail in the forearm." (The emphasis is my own. It should also be pointed out that the article has photographs of the ossuary and of the bones.)

This is the most cogent evidence one could hope to find on the manner of crucifixion in the first century. Keep in mind that this punishment was delivered under Roman rule and that Christ was condemned by the Roman procurator, Pontius Pilate, and was executed by Roman soldiers on a Roman cross--with presumably Roman techniques.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

http://www.smilieland.com/graphics/israel02.gif

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yeshuaslavejeff
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Yahweh's Peace,

All of the quotes you made are very good, but inaccurate in english-in every instance 'cross' is a
mistranslation.

Yeshua hung upon a tree, or, execution stake,
not upon a cross.

As far as I know, even if you don't know the languages used(I know very little personally),
regardless of if you think the NT was first in hebrew or aramaic or greek,
with a few days, or even just hours, of reading word studies, religious or secular or both,

you can find the truth of this.

Yes, absolutely, Yeshua was beaten until the flesh on his back was gone.
Yes, absolutely, Yeshua was tortured beyond anyones idea today of what torture is.
Yes, absolutely, Yeshua fully and completely obeyed ABBA His Father with Whom He shared Eternity we can't even dream about(it is so far beyond our ability to comprehend).
Yes, absolutely, Yeshua is the Word of G-d, unchangeable and unchanging, totally perfect and
whole and complete, a righteous Judge and compassionate Saviour for His, for all who obediently trust Him.

But the word 'cross', is an inaccurate translation in any language.

Yeshua was crucified, after suffering as the Scripture foretold.

Yeshua was hung upon a tree, as Scripture foretold long before.

Why was 'cross' substituted for an accurate translation???

I don't know. I do know-

Yeshua was crucified in my place -

He took freely and willingly the judgement

against me, now death has no power, no sting.

Yeshua was crucified in your place.

He willingly took your punishment upon Himself.

Not a nice picture usually used in church,

but in reality a gruesome, bloody spectacle.

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1Peter4:1,2 Yeshua suffered physical suffering:disciples have same mind/ willingness to share shame/physical suffering with Yeshua/His people.
Biblio:"willtherealhereticsplease standup?"byBercot(churchTruth)

Posts: 62 | From: tulsa | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Caretaker
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The Word of God stands as does the CROSS of Calvary. The translation from the Greek originals is accurate. The word "cross" is anathema to many in the Messianic Judaic community, and thus the need that they see to change the translation.

The Greek word used is #4716:

"stauros" a stake or post(as set upright), ie. (spec), a pole or cross(as an instrument of capital punishment); fig. exposure to death, ie. self denial, by implication the atonement of Christ;-cross

History records the use of the Cross by the Romans. The Cross of Christ stands in His Word.

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A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

http://www.smilieland.com/graphics/israel02.gif

Posts: 3976 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator


 
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