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Author
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Topic: The Pro-Infanticide March
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
For many years as a Christian woman I supported the Pro-Choice point of view. I financially supported planned parenthood; I campaigned for pro choice candidates; I proudly displayed my pro-choice pro-child bumper sticker and I raised my girls to be pro choice.
I never belived that abortion ws right, but I vehemently supported a woman's right to chose as I knew the horrors of illegal abortion in the days before Roe vs Wade.
God is so faithful; he in HIS time showed me the deception that I had fallen under and HIS spirit led me to repent and confess my sin to HIM and also to my children as I had to undo all the false teaching that I had taught them.
Making abortion illegal will not stop abortion; this is fact. The only thing that will stop abortion in the the same only thing that will ever stop man from doing those things that are evil and that is the power of HIS Holy Spirit.
A woman who loves God with all her mind body and soul CANNOT commit abortion, and so the solution to the slaughter of innocent blood is the solution to overcoming all evil and that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Still, this is not the whole picture. It is not enough that I choose for myself not to have an abortion!
God has by HIS sovergn will allowed this to be a country where the actions of the government is determined by the votes of the people. Because God has ordained that I be born and live in this country where the actions of the governement are determined by the votes of the people, I have a responsibility to God not to vote for or financially or otherwise support legislation that is in direct opposition to the things of God.
The Bible says we either gather or scatter; there is no gray area. If I through my silence or my action support abortion legislation or support legislators that support abortion legislation, I support something that is to God sin. Killing babies is to God sin, whether the murderer is a Christian or a heathen... killing babies is sin in the eyes of God.
Please note that I said by my action or inaction. If I sit silent and do not use the vote that God gave me, when he ordained the place of my birth and my citizenship, then I also support those who are proponents of abortion with my silence. If all God's people were silent with their votes then abortion would surely be legal and that would be an abomination to God.
I do not believe that we are to try to make America a theocracy or a place of Christian rule. There will not be a Theocracy on earth until Jesus comes again and establishes his millenial kingdom. I believe that we are to be light in the midst of darkness as the apostles were in the midst of Rome's carnage; they were concerned with preaching the gospel above all things as the Gospel is the only way to overcome evil, but the apostles were not born in a place where they had a voice or a vote. They lived in an empire. We who were by HIS ordination born as citzens of this land where the government is one of representative democracy and we were allowed by HIS sovergn will to reach the voting age, we have a responsibility to vote responsibly acording to our Christian conscience and that will be in opposition to abortion and if we fail to speak out in the peacable way that we have been given, which is the vote, then we are not gathering, but scattering and we in our silence support abortion.
As to our reproductive rights as women... we have them without Row vs Wade! But they are excercised in the bedroom! If you do not want children, dont have sex. If you want to have sex, have it with your spouse and trust God that he will not give you children until it is the time that HE has ordained, and know that if it is the time that HE has ordained, you who call yourself a child of God have no right to argue with those things that God has ordained. Christ bought that right when he bought you out of slavery to the devil and sin, you are now a slave to the cross; pick up his yoke it is not burdensome!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Daniel S
Advanced Member
Member # 1714
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posted
Tyme, that last paragraph you wrote intrigues me. You wrote:
quote:
Maybe, there will come a time, when we can debate this issue, and truly tell each other, how we feel, when we can walk into a conversation, with eyes open, ready to listen before passing judgment, when, we can respect that fact that we are able to express our views, with out the need to impose those views on others, when we can talk of things, with out the need to force other people to agree with our opinion of something, instead of simply accepting each other, and seeking if nothing else, to just understand each other. Instead of, well, this opinionated banter we have both witnessed, and taken part in.
I've tried to engage you in debate and you take it as personal attacks. Even when I complimented you in another thread, you assumed I was being argumentative. I hope and pray you become more of a "pachyderm."
Dan S
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The Lord bless you indeed.
http://www.First-EMC.org (shameless self promotion)
Posts: 436 | From: on the Ohio River | Registered: Jun 2003
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Tyme
Advanced Member
Member # 3017
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posted
quote:
No, and you should be ashamed of yourself for all these things you make up about other people.
If I have miss read or misinterpreted your intentions in your above post in regards to pre conception choices, I apologize for that.
quote:
That's sad. I don't want you to quit discussing this.
No, it is not sad, it is reality.
You have openly stated I cannot change your opinion on this.
So what then? Shall we just banter down on, smacking into each others iron clad faith, that we are right in our views, until the time comes, when we get emotional, and make it into a personal war, maybe we shall start telling each other what each others views on this are, never stopping once to see, that we do not even have the foggiest idea or clue what the other person truly believes, or why they feel that way. In the end, we shall only seek to hurt ourselves, and each other, in some quest to convert each other, and we shall fail.
I would rather it never went in that direction, and I regret that I have let this spiral down as far as it has already.
I respect that I cannot change you, I accept it and even embrace it.
Maybe, there will come a time, when we can debate this issue, and truly tell each other, how we feel, when we can walk into a conversation, with eyes open, ready to listen before passing judgment, when, we can respect that fact that we are able to express our views, with out the need to impose those views on others, when we can talk of things, with out the need to force other people to agree with our opinion of something, instead of simply accepting each other, and seeking if nothing else, to just understand each other. Instead of, well, this opinionated banter we have both witnessed, and taken part in.
I will hope for that day.
Till then, there is truly nothing I can say about this Subject
Tyme.
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I dream of a world.......
Posts: 527 | From: United States | Registered: Mar 2004
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Daniel S
Advanced Member
Member # 1714
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tyme:
Daniel S
Yes, I deleted my last post on this subject, because it was a harsh post, and I really did not want to continue to feeding the fire of this debate.
So... why did you start throwing gasoline on the coals again?
quote:
Originally posted by Tyme:
I know, we will never agree on this issue. You will not listen to anything I will post, you will not acknowledge any information I provide, only because, you have built a wall around your mind, that says “This is wrong”...
[*]Will it matter what I say?
[*]Will it matter what points I make?
[*]Can I influence your opinion on this?
[*]Is there even a point to me responding to this post at all?
[/list]
Well, I think the answer is No, to all these question. You have set your mind on this issue, and you will not budge.
There is no “Debate” in this, because, your not listening to me.
Well neither is anyone else, but, I’m just using you as an example.
You are right in that I will not agree with your position, but not because I don't listen. I have listened to you and countless others and have yet to hear someone make an argument that is simultaneously logical, ethical, and moral. You are claiming I am a hard-head? Mein bruedder, suechen sie der spiegel! While I could claim that you haven't read a word I've posted, that would be as disingenuous as your harsh and wordy claims about me. In fact, you are the one polarizing this argument by failing to acknowledge both sides. I do not claim that we should force women and girls into "death by coathanger," but you claim time and again that this is my position. I want to save both the child and the mother while you claim it is an "either/or" proposition.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyme:
- As for the
quote:
The purpose of law is to protect the innocent from tyranny.
This is incorrect...
(and the rest of your quibble on the law which I don't need to quote if you leave your earlier post intact...)
I have studied the law and I am not alone in my opinion, however I should have prefaced my statement with the word "ideally." Thomas Jefferson and John Adams are but two who agree.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyme:
quote:
How much more innocent than a child waiting to be born?
You tell me.
Seriously, you tell me.
OK, there is none so innocent as an unborn child. The rest of your argument is a poor attempt at a strawman which bears little resemblence to my position.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyme:
(Normally the same ones that are against abortion are the same ones that do not seek to keep their children informed about sex, and contraceptive measures)
Interesting statistic... where did you find it? It sure doesn't match with my experience... of course very little of your position matches with my experience. The part you posted about preaching hate - maybe you need to find a different preacher. One who loves you enough to tell you the truth you don't want to hear, and with substantial enough constitution to put up with all the cries of "hate." How often does a child tell a parent "I hate you" or "You don't love me" just because the parent said "no"? My son once thought I didn't love him because I wouldn't let him ride his bike in the street.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyme:
quote:
How much more tyrannical than to kill for convenience?
I think you meant to imply “Nothing is more tyrannical then to kill for convenience”
No, I didn't mean to imply that. I stated it in rhetorical fashion... (another thing learned from my education in law). It has nothing to do with enforcing my personal religious beliefs on anyone; rather it is the ethical and moral stance of this nation that we should do this. You seem to have forgotten the First Amendment; since you want to impose your religious (or perhaps irreligious or non-religigious or anti-religious...) beliefs on me (see, that argument works both ways...). Then you go into a "discussion of "freedom," during which you wrote...
quote:
Originally posted by Tyme:
Do you really think the only form or as you put it “Legal Murder” is abortion?...
(Ed. Note from Dan: Not me; do you know anyone who does?)
Ok, well lets give you a little lesion in Life and death. (Ed. Note of sarcasm from Dan: Oh good; I need this lesson)
...You go on to write about the death penalty - different issue - AKA "Red Herring." Then you go on to write of war and law enforcement. You may not know the difference between "murder" and "killing" but I do and you can read it in the Bible if you've a mind to. I am a retired soldier. Get out of the sewer, Tyme.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyme:
Assisted Suicide. A doctor helps their patient that is incurable, and would only life a life of pain and suffering, to help them find final peace.
Should we hold this doctor accountable for Murder?
You tell me:
YES!
quote:
Originally posted by Tyme:
The problem is, you say yes to one, no to another, either take a stand or don’t.
It’s not pick and chose, or multiple choice, it’s life and death here.
All or None. Murder is Murder, draw a moral line!
How naive... Life calls for choices - hard choices. Life is not black and white.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyme:
That is why I support abortion, because anyone that doesn’t is just “Another hypocrite” in my book. (And we all know just how much Jesus loved those people)
No one really cares about “Life”, it’s just another “Band Wagon” to get on, to make yourself seem morally just,
Seems to me you are the hypocrite, calling for the murder of children while saying you oppose the "murder" of the guilty. Face it Tyme, you are what you decry.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyme:
In the end of things, it’s a really sad, sad display, or misguided morals, and peoples need to impose their “Opinions” on others. That is true “Tyranny” and in it’s Sunday best to boot!
Good commentary on your posts on this topic...
quote:
Originally posted by Tyme:
Leave the poor woman alone, unless your going to help them, which no one is, leave them be.
NOW YOU'VE GOT IT!!!! Or you're really close, anyway!!! Christ calls us to HELP them!!! Stop being cynical and start helping.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyme:
quote:
There are choices to be made - before the life is conceived.
Now, apparently,
[list]you must believe that rape is a figment of people imagination,
That child molestation is a myth,
and that incest is a fantasy.
No, and you should be ashamed of yourself for all these things you make up about other people. I know the hurt and tradgedy of these all too well, and I also know that statistically rape and incest make up a very small percentage of the reasons for abortion. What's more, I am by no means advocating that we do nothing about rape and incest. You seem convinced that yours is the only answer! It is an answer that at best saves half of the lives involved from death and condemns many of the survivors to horrors unimaginable. Have you ever gone to the psychiactric care unit of a hospital to help the survivor of an abortion? How about continuing friendship and support of one or more of these women? I have. I have also prayed with and comforted ones who were 14 and pregnant, married and pregnant by another man, 15 and both the daughter and granddaughter of the same man, and many more examples. There are exceptions and each person must be treated individually, but the standard still holds - life is precious at any age.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyme:
I would get into this more and More.
But truth be told, I have wasted enough breath and time on this.
People will read this post and say “Abortion should be illegal” disregard anything and everything I have said, and carry on.
So, tell me, why should I even bother?
Why should I seek to enlighten people?
You can not teach those that refuse to learn.
(Not sure who said this)
As you can see, it’s a little more then “It’s always been legal”
But tell me, Have you been enlightened?
Have you had to think for a moment?
And you accuse me of being self righteous? Have you let anything any of us have written soak in? Why do you dismiss out of hand an argument that advocates life in abundance? You advocate what is at best a "50% solution" while we have been advocating what could be as close to 100% as possible. Will you think about that for a moment and stop being so cynical? What have I and my family done to help - you ought to see my family photo... and I am not alone.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyme:
Final Note: This is my mast post on this Subject, as I believe all that can be said, has been said..
Tyme.
That's sad. I don't want you to quit discussing this. I want you to actually listen to what you are saying and ask yourself if this nation should have to settle for so little.
I'm sure you feel very much put upon right now. And I'm also sure you think of me as a sanctimonious (at best) old hypocrite, but your arguments on this matter are strawmen built up for the express purpose of you knocking them down - they bear little resemblance to reality. This issue obviously is dear to you - don't give it up, but do think on this, what are all the viable alternatives to abortion.
PS: I may leave town for a few days (like this weekend) but I won't give up on this issue just because you don't like what I have to say.
(BTW, Moderators, if one of you cuts me off - OK, it's your board and your rules.)
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The Lord bless you indeed.
http://www.First-EMC.org (shameless self promotion)
Posts: 436 | From: on the Ohio River | Registered: Jun 2003
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
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posted
Tyme has a tendency to edit his posts, after people have replied.
To murder the innocent for the choices which have already been made is wrong.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Tyme
Advanced Member
Member # 3017
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posted
Daniel S
Yes, I deleted my last post on this subject, because it was a harsh post, and I really did not want to continue to feeding the fire of this debate.
I know, we will never agree on this issue. You will not listen to anything I will post, you will not acknowledge any information I provide, only because, you have built a wall around your mind, that says “This is wrong”
What answer can I provide to that, what answer can anyone provide to that?
Now I ask you:
- Will it matter what I say?
- Will it matter what points I make?
- Can I influence your opinion on this?
- Is there even a point to me responding to this post at all?
Well, I think the answer is No, to all these question. You have set your mind on this issue, and you will not budge.
There is no “Debate” in this, because, your not listening to me.
Well neither is anyone else, but, I’m just using you as an example.
As for the
quote:
The purpose of law is to protect the innocent from tyranny.
This is incorrect.
The Law establishes what is “Not Accepted by Society” and dictates punishment for those found guilty of transgressing the established rules or society, or Law.
Some, Laws have been established to protect people’s rights from Infringement by the government, but that is not the “Purpose” of the law, is it simply something that the “Law” can be used for.
The Law in and of itself is nothing more then a set of “Rules” by which people and things are supposed to follow.
Their purpose and usage is dependent totally on who, or what, made the law to start with, and who or what the law applies to.
I hope truly you have not spent your life, believe that the Laws purpose was to “Protect the innocent from Tyranny”
quote:
How much more innocent than a child waiting to be born?
You tell me.
Seriously, you tell me.
I mean, look, if a woman want to keep her child, it’s what she wants, if she wants to remove it from her body, then it’s what she wants.
Who the heck do you think you are to make that choice for her?
Are you going to feed that child?
Cloth that Child?
Provide for that Child?
Sure, and then your going to complain about high taxes, while you demand that the “State deals with the rising population of abandoned children”
I am going to add this little bit in, because you seem to miss it.
“UNWANTED Child, growing inside the body of a woman who an unwilling host”
Humm, toughie there on the moral front all of a sudden, when you word it the way it really is.
Not some made up fantasy that, “These are loving couples that are being forced to have abortions”
Or some silliness that these are “Really Good mothers, waiting to happen”
Look, wake up to the reality here. These are more often then Not, young, woman, who where ‘convinced’ into having sex, and then because of prudish parents
(Normally the same ones that are against abortion are the same ones that do not seek to keep their children informed about sex, and contraceptive measures)
where not informed about “Protective devices” and well, you guessed it, now they have this “Unwanted Child” they are scared to tell their parents, because, well they are prudish “Good Fearing” people who, will do nothing but condemn the poor girl, so,
she goes and has the “Problem removed” and we never stop to think that we are the makeup of this problem, if not for our closed minded ways, condemning people as opposed to helping them, and truly accepting them for being flawed, we preach hate.
Lovely, so, really, abortion is our damn fault, I guess that is why I try to preach the love of Christ, because I really can not stand the hate that “Christians” preach.
“My yoke is easy and my burden is light”
Jesus
quote:
How much more tyrannical than to kill for convenience?
I think you meant to imply “Nothing is more tyrannical then to kill for convenience”
Well I can think of a few things, like a stranger, getting between a mother and her unborn child, a stranger I might add who has no idea what the situation is, who the people involved are, and might share a different religious view then the people involved.
Nothing is more Tyrannical then to tell people that they must obey your moral religious code.
I think we have forgotten the First Amendment, You know, that silly one, that allows you to go to the church you want to go to or not go to church at all, and not be forced to be a Roman Catholic.
One of the few laws that protects people from the “Tyranny” of others.
quote:
Freedom does indeed mean accepting that other people will do things you do not like, but that does not mean those things must be legal or even condoned
A “Freedom” that is open to all people being illegal?
Living in a free land, means you need to accept that they will do things you do not like.
In your above your statement, you are neither accepting, and if you had your way, you would not allow.
That is Tyranny, not Freedom.
I hope I have cleared that up for you.
You cannot have an “Illegal Freedom”
quote:
Do you advocate that theft be made legal and then kept legal?
There are legal forms of “Theft” the Government has the right to seize your assets, and impound your possessions, against your will, and with out your consent.
That is stealing, simply put. Now you tell me:
Should this be made Illegal?
quote:
Do you advocate that theft be made legal and then kept legal?
Legal forms of “Oath breaking” or “Contract breaking” or “Lying”
Well there are legal forms of this, it’s called running for office, and public advertisement
quote:
Do you advocate that other forms of murder be made legal and then kept legal?
Ahh yes, Murder! The Big bad Boy!
Do you really think the only form or as you put it “Legal Murder” is abortion?
Ok, well lets give you a little lesion in Life and death.
Many stats have the “Death Penalty” or “Public Execution” as it was at one time called, it is legal murder, simply put.
Should we allow for the Death Penalty?
Should we try the Government for Murder because their state has this penalty?
You tell me:
War, is the “Legal” killing of other people, because they are “Your enemy” You go to their country, and kill them. Simply put, it is murder, on a grand scale.
Do you think War should be illegal?
Should Solders returning from War be tried for Murder?
You tell me.
Will you call every solder that has fought, Killed, and Died for this country “A filthy murder”?
Every Police officer carries on their hip, a “Side arm” this is the death penalty, every last one of them, has the right to kill you. No regardless of why they kill you, they have the right to be judge, jury and executioner. And Side arms were made for only one use, and that is to Kill. A Gun as used by law enforcement, has no other purpose.
Should Cops be allowed to carry Guns?
You tell me.
Assisted Suicide. A doctor helps their patient that is incurable, and would only life a life of pain and suffering, to help them find final peace.
Should we hold this doctor accountable for Murder?
You tell me:
A patient has a “DNR” tag, on them, and is brought into the emergency room, the doctors know they could keep them alive, but don’t because of the tag.
Should they be called murders? They could have saved them, they could have kept that person alive, but refused to do so. That’s killing in negligence!
You tell me:
The problem is, you say yes to one, no to another, either take a stand or don’t.
It’s not pick and chose, or multiple choice, it’s life and death here.
All or None. Murder is Murder, draw a moral line!
That is why I support abortion, because anyone that doesn’t is just “Another hypocrite” in my book. (And we all know just how much Jesus loved those people)
No one really cares about “Life”, it’s just another “Band Wagon” to get on, to make yourself seem morally just,
In the end of things, it’s a really sad, sad display, or misguided morals, and peoples need to impose their “Opinions” on others. That is true “Tyranny” and in it’s Sunday best to boot!
Leave the poor woman alone, unless your going to help them, which no one is, leave them be.
Your not going to save a single life making it illegal, and even if you did, I am sure, the salve trade is still profitable.
As for this little bit:
quote:
There are choices to be made - before the life is conceived.
Now, apparently,
- you must believe that rape is a figment of people imagination,
That child molestation is a myth,
and that incest is a fantasy.
You do not always have a “Choice” before conception.
Now do you?
I would get into this more and More.
But truth be told, I have wasted enough breath and time on this.
People will read this post and say “Abortion should be illegal” disregard anything and everything I have said, and carry on.
So, tell me, why should I even bother?
Why should I seek to enlighten people?
You can not teach those that refuse to learn.
(Not sure who said this)
As you can see, it’s a little more then “It’s always been legal”
But tell me, Have you been enlightened?
Have you had to think for a moment?
Final Note: This is my mast post on this Subject, as I believe all that can be said, has been said..
Tyme.
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I dream of a world.......
Posts: 527 | From: United States | Registered: Mar 2004
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Daniel S
Advanced Member
Member # 1714
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posted
NOTE: Apparently, the post I was answering has been deleted. I have now done the same
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The Lord bless you indeed.
http://www.First-EMC.org (shameless self promotion)
Posts: 436 | From: on the Ohio River | Registered: Jun 2003
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Daniel S
Advanced Member
Member # 1714
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tyme:
[QUOTE]Betty and Daniel, I answered both these points in my above posts.
I am not going to answer them again.
“Freedom means accepting that other people will do things you do not like”
That is the price of freedom.
Tyme.
Forgive us for being so dense. Could you please answer the two questions in my last post in such a manner as to facilitate our understanding of the basis for your oppinion? quote:
The purpose of law is to protect the innocent from tyranny.
How much more innocent than a child waiting to be born?
How much more tyrannical than to kill for convenience?
As for your statement: quote:
“Freedom means accepting that other people will do things you do not like”
That is the price of freedom.
Freedom does indeed mean accepting that other people will do things you do not like, but that does not mean those things must be legal or even condoned.
I do not like robbery, but it is a fact of life in our society - and it is not legal. I shouldn't have to keep my house locked, but I do because people are free to travel the streets while I am away from home and some will abuse that freedom by breaking in and stealing things. That behavior is not ethical, moral, or legal.
Murder is a fact of life in our society, but it is not ethical, moral, or legal (except that abortion is legal). Abortion is neither ethical nor moral - and it should not be legal.
Do you advocate that theft be made legal and then kept legal?
Do you advocate that perjury be made legal and then kept legal?
Do you advocate that other forms of murder be made legal and then kept legal?
Let's petition the Supreme Court to make auto theft legal because it's inconvenient and expensive for me to maintain my car. Since I have a right to "pursue happiness," I should have the right to a car I want. You say there are other options rather than theft? Exactly... There are choices to be made - before the life is concieved.
To argue that a form of murder should be legal simply because it is currently legal is absurd. You have to have more to your position than that.
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The Lord bless you indeed.
http://www.First-EMC.org (shameless self promotion)
Posts: 436 | From: on the Ohio River | Registered: Jun 2003
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
Tyme,
I would like the freedom not to pay taxes. I don't see that happening any time soon. In other
words there are alot of laws that restrict our freedom. But, laws are necessarry. We need a law to protect unborn babies. We have laws against murder of people. Why not have laws to protect the most innocent of all, unborn children?
Betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tyme
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Member # 3017
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posted
quote:
The American Association of Aborted People (AAAP), a political inaction committee, said none of its 38 million members would participate in the protest march.
"Since the landmark Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision in 1973, our ranks have swelled by about 1.4 million per year," said the unnamed AAAP spokesman. "So, we should be at the center of any debate about abortion. Unfortunately, none of our members could tear themselves away to attend the rally. But we'll be there in spirit, if not in body."
I did find the humor in this however, a sad, humor, but humor none the less.
Betty and Daniel, I answered both these points in my above posts.
I am not going to answer them again.
“Freedom means accepting that other people will do things you do not like”
That is the price of freedom.
Tyme.
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I dream of a world.......
Posts: 527 | From: United States | Registered: Mar 2004
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Daniel S
Advanced Member
Member # 1714
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tyme:
I said, "Abortions should not be illegal"
Tyme.
The purpose of law is to protect the innocent from tyranny.
How much more innocent than a child waiting to be born?
How much more tyrannical than to kill for convenience?
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The Lord bless you indeed.
http://www.First-EMC.org (shameless self promotion)
Posts: 436 | From: on the Ohio River | Registered: Jun 2003
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
I have been looking for this for days
This week's promise:
You are important to God
"I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my spokesman to the world."
To think more highly of ourselves than we ought is pride. But to think less of ourselves than we ought is false humility. In between there is an honest appraisal of our own worth, and that is self-esteem. The Bible's message is simple: God values us highly because he loves us deeply. But we must not think we are sufficient without God. Our value is tied to the value he places on us. Allow God to work through you to accomplish great things for him.
Jeremiah 1:5
Even in the womb we are known by God. The law is wrong to allow us to take a life. A baby in the womb is important enough to God that He knows the baby before it is born.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tyme
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
The butchering of babies is wrong.
You Wrong me.
I said, "Abortions should not be illegal"
Not that it wa s"Morraly right to get an Abortion"
Tyme.
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I dream of a world.......
Posts: 527 | From: United States | Registered: Mar 2004
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Caretaker
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The butchering of babies is wrong.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Tyme
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posted
Did you even read what you posted?
Read WHAT you just posted, and think about this.
quote:
When abortions were illegal, about 90% of them were done by doctors. Some did quiet abortions for a select few women. Others, like Jesse Ketchum, hooked up with prochoice organizations and received a steady stream of abortion patients. Dr. Alan Guttmacher, a strong advocate of legalizing abortion, wrote in 1959, “The technique of the well-accredited criminal abortionist is usually good. They have to be good to stay in business, since otherwise they would be extremely vulnerable to police action.” These same doctors continued to do abortions after legalization. In criminal practice, most physician abortionists held to a rigid 12-week cut-off, and would not perform the riskier late abortions. This is why so many criminal abortionists also ran baby-selling rings, and may in part explain prochoicers’ persistence is seeing adoption as somehow sinister. After legalization, with the fear of legal repercussions lifted, physician abortionists often became reckless, resulting in patient deaths. Milan Vuitch is but one example of the abortionist who had a clean record in his criminal practice, only to get sloppy in his legal practice, with women dying as a result.:
Non-physician illegal abortions were not as grim as propaganda paints them to be. The case of Geraldine Santoro , found dead in a motel room after her boyfriend attempted to perform an abortion on her, was held up as typical. As tragic as Gerri’s death was, her abortion was not typical of non-physician illegal abortions .
Roughly half of abortions done by non-physicians were done by nurses, midwives, physician assistants, and other people with training in health care. The majority of these para-medical abortionists had a physician contact who provided training, equipment, medication, and consultation, and who would quietly treat any complications without reporting the abortion to authorities. And some non-physician abortionists who had no connection to the health care field -- the Jane syndicate in Chicago, for example -- still had physician training and support.:
If this is True,
Take a Second and think about this, think LONG and HARD.
Medical professionals, have been Pro-Choice, before Pro-Choice existed.
Think about that, give that some serious thought.
People, trained in the medical field, have been pro-Choice, doing what I preach to you,
“Saving the Lives of the Woman who have an unwanted pregnancy”
Before it became the issue it is today.
And, you tell me it is wrong.
quote:
Maybe someday Tyme you will stop buying into the propaganda of the $90 Million dollar a year abortion industry, take off the blinders and see the truth.
As for the 90 million dollar “EVIL Abortion EMPIRE”, please, get a grip. That sounds like every “Atheist” I have met preaching the “Christian Machine” get real.
Planned Parenthood, preaching every form of Pregnancy issue, from Adoption, to Keeping the Child.
They make MORE money if you have the Child, then if you abort it. Ponder that for a little while. (and there is more money made on baby products each year, then abortions could even dream of, chew on that for a while as well)
Don’t believe me? Check the price of Diapers, and tell me, 3 pairs a day, at least, for the next 24 months, Min, think about that.
Pack of 320, price 58.95 (You can find the price here
That is roughly 2190 diapers, per child. (3 diapers @ 365 days over 2 years total)
That is roughly $403.43 per child, at 129 million children born each year, (Data found here
That is $52,042,470,000 every 2 years (52 Billion)
That makes 90 million dollars look like chump change when you think about it.
Ok, lets look at America (Industrial countries that use Diapers), that is only 10,320,000 children each year, that is $201 dollars annual in Diapers, which amounts to $2,074,320,000 each year in diapers alone.(2 Billion)
Now, I have used, 3 diapers a day a guess, some children use more, some use less, as a parent, you could tell me that better then I could guess, but when you look at these numbers, think about how little 90 million dollars is, really.
The Government makes $124,459,200 each year(124 million), on the 0.06% sales taxes on these diapers.
Which is still more then the “EVIL Abortion EMPIRE”
Wake up, and get real, You can think it’s sin, and hate it, and what ever.
I never said you can’t. That’s the great part of this country, your free to have your own opinions and make your own choices.
Tyme.
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I dream of a world.......
Posts: 527 | From: United States | Registered: Mar 2004
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Caretaker
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The picture of the death, by illegal abortion, of Geraldine Santoro is indeed shocking. The victim of a brutal husband, pregnant by an affair with her boyfriend, scared to death that her husband would find out, and the boyfriend attempting to abort with a coathanger and a medical textbook.
There were two lives taken that day, as a consequence of sin. The brutality of the husband, and the adultry led to the murder of the baby and the tragic death of this woman, from hemmorage. When it went wrong her boyfriend abandoned her, and now her picture is used not as a means to combat brutallity against women, but as a propaganda tool to brutalize babies. The solution to brutal husbands is to murder the pre-born.
http://theirlastchoice.0catch.com/
Prior to legalization, pro-choice advocates blamed women’s abortion deaths on abortion laws.
Their argument went something like this:
When abortions are illegal, doctors can’t do them for fear of losing their license. That leaves women with nobody to turn to except rank amateurs or themselves. Clearly, such abortions are fraught with danger, and thousands of women lose their lives every year as a result. Legalizing abortion won’t change the number of abortions -- women, after all, have always resorted to abortion -- but it will ensure that abortions are done in clean, regulated facilities by competent physicians. Such abortions will be far safer, and women’s lives will be saved.:
Every facet of this argument is flawed. :
When abortions were illegal, about 90% of them were done by doctors. Some did quiet abortions for a select few women. Others, like Jesse Ketchum, hooked up with prochoice organizations and received a steady stream of abortion patients. Dr. Alan Guttmacher, a strong advocate of legalizing abortion, wrote in 1959, “The technique of the well-accredited criminal abortionist is usually good. They have to be good to stay in business, since otherwise they would be extremely vulnerable to police action.” These same doctors continued to do abortions after legalization. In criminal practice, most physician abortionists held to a rigid 12-week cut-off, and would not perform the riskier late abortions. This is why so many criminal abortionists also ran baby-selling rings, and may in part explain prochoicers’ persistence is seeing adoption as somehow sinister. After legalization, with the fear of legal repercussions lifted, physician abortionists often became reckless, resulting in patient deaths. Milan Vuitch is but one example of the abortionist who had a clean record in his criminal practice, only to get sloppy in his legal practice, with women dying as a result.:
Non-physician illegal abortions were not as grim as propaganda paints them to be. The case of Geraldine Santoro , found dead in a motel room after her boyfriend attempted to perform an abortion on her, was held up as typical. As tragic as Gerri’s death was, her abortion was not typical of non-physician illegal abortions .
Roughly half of abortions done by non-physicians were done by nurses, midwives, physician assistants, and other people with training in health care. The majority of these para-medical abortionists had a physician contact who provided training, equipment, medication, and consultation, and who would quietly treat any complications without reporting the abortion to authorities. And some non-physician abortionists who had no connection to the health care field -- the Jane syndicate in Chicago, for example -- still had physician training and support.:
There were indeed criminal abortions performed by rank amateurs -- such as Geraldine Santoro’s boyfriend, whose only training came in the form of a medical textbook he had somehow procured . But legalization has not entirely eliminated these abortions.
For unknown reasons, some women still allow amateurs to perform their abortions, as did a California woman who died in 1990 after she failed to show up for her appointment at a local abortion clinic, instead allowing her boyfriend to attempt the abortion with a plastic tube.:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Are abortions safer today:
http://www.abortiontv.com/BotchedAbortion.htm
San Francisco, CA -- A woman who remained pregnant following a botched
abortion three years ago has been awarded $672,610 from Planned
Parenthood. As the court clerk read the jury's award Wednesday, the woman,
whose unborn child lost two limbs in the abortion attempt before being
aborted months later, lowered her head and wept, convinced her three-year
court battle was finally over.
And it is, but only for now. An attorney for Planned Parenthood Golden
Gate, which oversees nine abortion facilities in the Bay Area, vowed to
appeal the award. "It's definitely going to be appealed," Lynn Stocker
said Thursday.
But for the time being, the case is finished.
"I feel that there is justice after all," the 28-year-old woman said
following the decision Wednesday. (The woman, is referred to only as
"J.B." in court records.)
The three-week trial dealt only with how much J.B. was owed for her pain,
not whether Planned Parenthood was liable. San Francisco Superior Court
Judge Douglas Munson ordered the pro-abortion organization be held
responsible for its failure to turn over critical medical documents to
J.B. and her lawyer.
Stocker said she would not comment on why Planned Parenthood refused to
turn over the documents, saying only that the organization felt they were
"irrelevant" to the woman's case. But J.B. said the documents -- which
include internal Planned Parenthood procedures and her medical records --
must have contained something the pro-abortion organization didn't want
her to see.
"If someone is covering up the evidence, it's obvious they have something
to hide," J.B. said. "Why would you wash your hands if they weren't
bloody?"
The woman, a Yugoslav immigrant, described her experience in her testimony
and in the original lawsuit.
In October 1997, she discovered she was pregnant and went to Planned
Parenthood. But the "care" she received at the abortion facility was less
than ideal, said her lawyer, Chris Dolan. The first-trimester abortion
J.B. sought went awry.
Medical experts testified that J.B. was probably pregnant with twins. But
the abortion she underwent in December 1997 only fully aborted one child.
Though she was told the abortion was complete, J.B. said, she still felt
pregnant two weeks later in a follow-up exam, and called several times for
advice. Each time, she was told that her symptoms were normal.
But on Feb. 18, 1998, J.B. demanded a urine test. The same nurse who had
long assured her nothing was wrong came back horrified. J.B. was still
pregnant, her lawyer said.
She had been carrying the unborn child for nearly six months. The Planned
Parenthood facility does not do abortions late in the second trimester, so
she was given an apology, a list of places who would do abortions in the
second trimester, and shooed out the door, Dolan said.
Though Planned Parenthood did relent and pay for the second abortion, J.B.
was emotionally traumatized, something that would only get worse.
An ultrasound at a Buena Vista, California abortion facility revealed the
remaining unborn child had only one arm and one leg. "She sees the
ultrasound, and has an emotional collapse," Dolan said. "She has to go
through a three-day procedure to terminate the fetus' life, something that
absolutely wrecks her."
Since that abortion, Dolan said, his client has been haunted by visions of
babies being killed, has contemplated suicide, and cries uncontrollably at
the sight of young children -- particularly twins.
"She is like a shattered human being," said the attorney, adding that J.B.
has been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder. "She has been
unable to be in a relationship since this happened. She can't get in close
proximity to a man without shaking and, sometimes, vomiting."
The trial began Feb. 2, and the jury returned its verdict after two days
of deliberations. They awarded her $650,000 for mental anguish, $1,870 in
past medical costs, $14,500 for future psychiatric expenses and $6,240 in
lost earnings.
"I think deciding the economic damages were fairly easy," said Paula
Brown, who served as the jury's forewoman. "But the non-economic part was
more difficult. It's not really easy to put a dollar amount on someone's
life." In the end, however, Brown said the jury went with Dolan's
recommendation, finding it was fair.
Fair or not, the award will be reduced, due to a 1975 California law that
limits non-economic damages in medical malpractice cases to $250,000.
Though upheld by the courts on several occasions, the cap has never been
increased. Brown, surprised by this, said the law bordered on the
ridiculous. "If it's our judgment it's our judgment," she said. "The 12
people in that room fought for that verdict."
Another juror, Isobel Jones, who appeared on the edge of tears as she
discussed the case, said the trial was emotionally wrenching. Jones, a
corporate lawyer who is herself 28 weeks pregnant, wonders why she was
picked for the case at all.
"I don't know how I did it, but I was told by the judge to be fair, and by
God I did it," she said.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.abortiontv.com/BotchedAbortion.htm
3-Nov-2000 -- EWTN Pro-Family News
Sister says Dr. Robert Crist performed operation
WASHINGTON, DC --- Did the doctor at Planned Parenthood place an
oxygen tube in Linda McCowen's stomach instead of her lungs? This is the
question the family of Linda McGowan wants answered.
This fact came to light when Ed Szymkowiak, national director of STOPP
International, spoke with McCowen's sister, Shannon Fisher.
Fisher said the family speculates the oxygen tube, which was supposed to
be placed in McCown's lung, was placed in her stomach instead. Linda
McCown, 27, of Sedalia, Mo. remained comatose on Nov. 10 following a
tubal ligation she had at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Overland Park,
Kansas on Nov. 2. KMBC-TV News in Kansas City reported that during the
surgery, McCown, a mother of four, had gone without oxygen for a period of
time.
Fisher said that the doctor who performed the operation is Robert Crist. (Dr.
Crist is Planned Parenthood's chief abortionist at the Forest Park Street
abortuary in St. Louis.) Fisher also said that the family will be taking legal
action.
Malpractice at Planned Parenthood is nothing new. Lawsuits filed against
Planned Parenthood facilities across the country include medical
malpractice, plus violations of health codes, medical record and patient care
deficiencies, unsanitary conditions, altered lab reports, fraudulent billing,
equipment and utility deficiencies, sex offenses, and so on (see: The
Scarlet Survey, by Kevin Sherlock, Brennyman Books, 1997).
"We urge people to keep Linda and her family in their prayers,"
Szymkowiak said. "This tragic incident should lead women to think twice
before they go to Planned Parenthood for any type of health care."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The lies of abortion advocates have deceived women far too long. No Christian should advocate for the butchering of babies, with the subsequent brutal consequences of abortions on the physical and mental health of the woman.
Maybe someday Tyme you will stop buying into the propaganda of the $90 Million dollar a year abortion industry, take off the blinders and see the truth.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Tyme
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And I have been saying .. what?
quote:
Note: I am not saying it is not a Sin, so don’t even play that game. I am not endorsing that Abortions are “Morally Just and Right”. You can slap any label you want on abortions.
All except Illegal.
quote:
Once again: I am not saying Abortion is Morally correct, or Good or anything else. You can hold any belief you want on abortion
As long as it remains a Legal Option.
Did you all miss this the first two times?
And TexasGrandMa, you are correct, I truly Love you Betty. (In a platonic way as a child of God, I don’t want your husband to get jealous of me)
Being Legal does not mean Morally correct, being Illegal does not mean morally wrong.
And Passing laws that make things illegal, won’t stop them from happening.
One day we are going to really realize that.
I support Legal Abortion, not because I support killing “Unborn babies” but because the alternative is abhorrent to me.
I think you all need to take your “blinders” off.
All it took was a photo of a 27 year old female, dead in a hotel room. With a coat hanger inserted into her, to perform an “Illegal” abortion, to make me a “Pro-Choice” person, now and forever.
I know I can’t stop abortions, I might as well save the lives of the woman. Maybe you all want to dehumanize these poor females, you want to punish them, and make them less then you, because of their situation.(Which I doubt any of you have taken the time to help improve it)
Click it if you DARE WARNING Site contains really UGLY photo
If you want to read the story with out the Photo, click Here
Now, Let me ask you all a question, since you brought this issue to a Moral front.
When was the last time you went down to an abortion clinic and said to some random woman, who was considering an abortion (Your family does not Count)
“I’ll find a good home for the child if you bring it to term, and I’ll pay the hospital expenses, and I’ll make sure you can keep your job while your away giving birth.”
“I’ll take care of you though this painful time in your life, because I care about you and your unborn child”
I do not think there is one here who has said that to anyone.
If you have, you have the right to tell me to shut up about this, and I will! Truly, your sinless on this issue, and blessing upon you, your part of a solution, and an amazing person.
As it is always said
“If your not part of a solution, your part of the problem.”
You see, I’m part of a solution; I say “Keep it Legal, keep the Girls safe”
At the very least, I’m trying to save a life,
You all are just seeking to kill at least two at a time.
Are you ready for that much blood on your hands?
Maybe someday, you will see my view on this, when you can look past the “Planks” in your eyes, and see the truth of the situation.
Tyme
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I dream of a world.......
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Just because something is legal does not make it right. There are those who would make it legal to have sex with children and animals.
Just because our government says we can have an abortion doesn't make it right.
Remember the Jews asked Jesus, why Moses allowed divorce and He asnwered that Moses did it to please the people but Jesus said it was wrong except for adultry.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Endoxos
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Amen, Caretaker.
Tyme,
Job 10:9-12 "Remember that you (God) molded me like clay. Will you now turn me to dust again? Did you not pour me out like milk and curdle me like cheese, clothe me with skin and flesh
and knit me together with bones and sinews? You gave me life and showed me kindness, and in your providence watched over my spirit."
God gives us life. Who are we to say when life starts? Who are we to destroy what God has given? From the moment God creates us within our mothers' wombs, we are alive. Do you not think that God views ALL intentional killing as murder?
Besides, if you are concerned about the legality of it... who do you think made the killing of blameless children legal? God and Jesus, who have said that even if one sheep was lost out of a hundred, He would desperately search for it? Or Satan, the ravenous wolf who seeks to devour the sheep?
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My signature is apisdn umop.
Posts: 362 | From: HELP! I'm stuck in a DOS window! | Registered: Mar 2004
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Caretaker
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What would Jesus say to those who justify and through their words lead others into iniquity?
What would Jesus say to those who lead innocent children to the alter to be butchered?
Luke 17:2
It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Where is the love of Christ to be found in those who butcher babies? Where is the love of Christ to be found in those who lie to women and deceive them that they are not carring a living human being, and lead them to the abortuary?
Where is the love of Christ to be found in those who come against Christians, and enable fully formed babies to be tortured and murdered?
We beheld the face of iniquity as they stood with their blood-stained hands at the pro-abortion rally. We behold the face of apostasy in those liberal churches which support this abomination.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Tyme
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Humph.
Well, after your done condemning me, preaching your hate, simply because I do not feel the same way you do.
I wonder what Jesus would have to say to you both?
Tyme.
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I dream of a world.......
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Caretaker
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The butchering of the most helpless was NOT the law of the land until January 23, 1973.
What is legal is not always right. Law doesn’t reflect morality – rather the law should reflect a morality that is independent of the law. Case in point: was abortion immoral on January 21, 1973 and moral on January 23, 1973? In the 1940’s a German doctor could kill Jews legally, while in America he would have been prosecuted for murder. In the 1970’s and American doctor could kill unborn babies legally, while in Germany he would have been prosecuted for murder. Laws change. Truth and justice don’t."
The very day that my daughter was born there were 4000 babies butchered, tortured, and denied their basic human rights. The year my daughter was born 1,371,285 babies were burned, chopped, hacked into pieces simply because they were inconvenient.
Abortion insures that 750,000 females each year do not have control over their bodies. Why? Because they’re killed. About ½ of the total babies aborted each year in the United States are female – killed before they are even born, not even able to enjoy the basic right to life.
We don’t have absolute control over our bodies. A man is not permitted to expose himself in public. In most areas of the country, women are not allowed to sell their bodies through prostitution. We’re also not permitted to take illegal drugs.
Too often, the "right to control my life," becomes a right to hurt an oppress others. Whites used blacks to enhance their own quality of life, but did so at the expense of blacks. Men have often used women to live their lives as they wanted, but at the expense of women.
How can one follow the Master who said suffer little children to come unto me, for of such is the kingdom of Heaven, the Lord God who destroyed the alters and burned up the priests who sacrificed children on their alters, to follow He who hates those who shed innocent blood, and sit in the pews on Sunday morning with His Word in their hands, and their hands be stained from the blood of the 40 million little lambs who have been butchered on the alters of convednience? If one supports abortion then one is guilty, culpable in the death of 4000 babies each day .
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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becauseHElives
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These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him:
1) A proud look,
2) a lying tongue,
3) hands that shed innocent blood,
4) An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,
5) feet that be swift in running to mischief,
6) A false witness [that] speaketh lies,
7) he that soweth discord among brethren.
#3 hands that shed innocent blood, the Scriptures are very plain on the matter. Yahweh hates the shedding of innocent blood. That is what abotion is. The laws of a nation, any nation if in oposition to the Laws of Yahweh are not to be reguarded by those that love Yahweh and claim allegiance to his Kingdom.
We must renew our mind by the washing of the Word, and not think as the humanist think, but bring ever thought under the authority of the Scriptures.
Humanism remains de facto the established religion of our land, and the public schools are the main vehicle for the promotion of its worldview. As one great Humanist triumphantly declared: Education is thus a most powerful ally of Humanism, and every American public school is a school of Humanism. What can the theistic Sunday-school, meeting for an hour once a week, and teaching only a fraction of the children, do to stem the tide of a five-day program of humanistic teaching?[10]
[10] Charles Francis Potter (a signatory of the 1930 Humanist Manifesto I), Humanism: A New Religion (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1930), p. 128.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-sum/sum-g002.html
Humanism say we have the right to kill an innocent child for our convenience, health or some other reason.
Where is the "Faith" trusting Yahweh in that?
Abortion is saying may problem is to big for you Yahweh, I will do it myself.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Tyme
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
My youngest daughter was born at 30 weeks, and weighed 2 lbs. 14 ozs. She spent two months in the hospital. She will be 16 years old in September, and has the second highest batting stats on her High School softball team.
I am glad to hear your child turned out well, and I am glad to hear that she is doing as well as she is.
God Bless her and her parents, May her life be full of Joy and happyness.
I know that a premature child can be a strain on parents, and it truly such a joy when they do survive "God made them fighters"
Praise and belessings be upon you are yours.
Tyme.
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I dream of a world.......
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Tyme
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Caretaker:
quote:
God’s law takes precedent over the legislated laws of man. Abortion is the shedding of innocent blood, and all abortion supporters have the blood of innocent babies on their hands, and are culpable in the murder of millions.
Humm this sounds like an
”absolutely biased opinion of a rabid abortion opponent”
So tell me, the difference between you and them, Oh wait, I know the difference.
They don’t seek to remove the existing rights of people in this country simply because they don’t like what they do with it.
do you think this easy for them, or anyone involved. Do you think they have a cup of tea and wait for it to happen with all good things going on.
Look AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN
This is so ideally and circular, let me show you.
You want the Freedom of this Country, to protect and give rights to people (To some people that are not even truly “People” yet), at the same time you want to remove existing rights from people who do things you don’t agree with.
How does that work?
How can you say We are giving rights? When all your doing is taking away rights?
Tell me, why is the child’s “Rights” more important then the mothers “Rights”
Make sense yet?
It never did to me.
You make this a religious debate, it’s not, it’s a Constitutional debate. It’s about Laws and Freedoms, not “Morals” do not mix the two.
Let me just leave you with this
quote:
Only a woman, her physician, family, and clergy know the facts
and only they can call upon their own conscience and religious
and moral value system to make such a heart wrenching decision.
More can be found here
Once again: I am not saying Abortion is Morally correct, or Good or anything else. You can hold any belief you want on abortion
As long as it remains a Legal Option.
Tyme
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I dream of a world.......
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Caretaker
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My youngest daughter was born at 30 weeks, and weighed 2 lbs. 14 ozs. She spent two months in the hospital. She will be 16 years old in September, and has the second highest batting stats on her High School softball team.
Dr. Tiller performs abortions two months past my daughter's birth date. More viable babies then my daughter are being killed every year at the "Women's Health Clinic" in Wichita.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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posted
Tyme:
Caretaker
I am not even going to humor your post
Because of how much this topic churns my stomach to even read such blasphmey, I do not even want to address it, but
I will only offer some sound advice on this topic, and try to be as unbiased as I can be.
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1) Please tell me where I blasphemed.
2) NARAL and Planned Parenthood are rabid abortion proponents and providers respectively, and are absolutely biased.
3) The ffirst two quotes I provided are from Dr. Tiller's own website, and he specializes in late term abortions, in his Wichita,KS., clinic. He performs abortions far past the "early third tri-mester".
At Women's Health Care Services, we specialize in "late" abortion care. We are able to perform elective abortions to the time in the pregnancy when the fetus is viable .
Viability is not a set point in time. Viability is determined by the attending physician and is based on sonogram results, physical examination and last menstrual period date (if known). Our telephone counselors will ask you a number of medical questions to determine if you are eligible for an elective abortion. If you have visited another clinic or physician, we will ask for the results from a recent ultrasound.
Kansas law allows for post-viability abortion procedures when continuing the pregnancy is detrimental to the pregnant woman's health . Each person's circumstances are reviewed on a case-by-base basis. Please call so that we can discuss admission criteria with you.
http://www.drtiller.com/elect.html
(Please note that the term "health of the mother" can include "mental health" meaning desire for abortion.)
It does not appear that you want to address the facts of abortion. By hiding the reality, by dehumanizing the pre-born baby, with the use of clinical terms such as fetus, unwanted pregnancy, removal of tissue, woman's right to choose, etc., the proponents of abortion and providers deceive and are allowed to continue their butchery.
If you are able to approach the topic without blinders, with a willingness to learn and be informed, then this site is a tremendous resource, especially if you or someone you love has had an abortion:
http://abortiontv.com/
Women are the ultimate victims of abortion with many long-term effects. An abortionist stretches the womb opening in 30 to 60 seconds, instead of 12 or more hours of naturally labor – tearing the muscles. If the woman becomes pregnant again, the muscular door has been weakened -- tending to open way ahead of time. Women who've had abortions who later seek children face these additional risks:
During the 1st three months there is twice the chance of miscarriage.
During the second trimester there is ten times the chance of miscarriage.
There is three times the chance of premature delivery.
After birth: 2There is two times the chance of infant death.
Comparisons are made between abortion and slavery. Religions didn’t eliminate slavery – doctors did. It became so evident that the only difference between blacks and whites is the color of the skin that people could no longer ignore the truth. Abortion is discrimination. When will abortion end? When we finally accept the obvious -- that life begins at conception. The only difference between unborn and born people is:
Where they live (place of residence) and;
Their age.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Tyme
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Member # 3017
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posted
Caretaker
I am not even going to humor your post
Because of how much this topic churns my stomach to even read such blasphmey, I do not even want to address it, but
I will only offer some sound advice on this topic, and try to be as unbiased as I can be.
NARAL
Planned Parenthood
This person might have a good lesion to teach you
CARM
So might these people
Religious Tolerance
Oh yes.
Exodus
quote:
As to the "1-minute from being born"... isn't that essentially what partial-birth abortion is? They pull the body out, and 1/3 of the head
This is early Third Trimester, not “1 min till it is supposed to come out”
quote:
You know, they have produced viable Test-Tube babies relatively left and right, some of those to term completely outside of any womb. What if there was some cheap, but effective way to "grow" the babies to term. It would eliminate the killing, and in the same blow, eliminate the "I can do what I want with my body" excuse. If a person didn't want to carry the baby to term, then put it up for Test-Tube-Adoption.
In such a scenario, would there then be any need for the killing?
As for the test tube, Last I looked, they had not been able to carry to term, if they have, please provide information.
But if we could transfer the child to a test tube, I am 100% for the saving of the life, I am also 100% against passing laws that remove peoples freedoms.
Best would be, if we could have familys lined up to adopt this children and give them good homes.
Tyme.
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I dream of a world.......
Posts: 527 | From: United States | Registered: Mar 2004
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Caretaker
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Tyme:
Early third trimester is the latest they can do one, after that, they can remove the child and it can survive on it’s own, and third trimester abortions are only done if the child and the mother are in danger.
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This is a false statement straight from the propaganda mills of the pro-abortionists.
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Informed Consent - Attachment B
PLEASE NOTE: It is not necessary that you print these attachments for Women's Health Care Services, P.A. However, you may print them for your own records.
Methods of abortion
The method of abortion used is dependant on the gestational age (how far along the pregnancy is) and the pregnant woman’s physical condition. More than 90 percent of all abortions are done in the first trimester (the first 14 weeks after a woman’s last menstrual period).
Early non-surgical abortion
(to 8 weeks LMP, 6 weeks conception)
A drug is given to the pregnant woman which stops the development of the pregnancy. A second drug is administered which helps the uterus to contract and expel the pregnancy. About 10% of abortions by this method fail and a vacuum aspiration must be performed to remove the embryo.
First trimester abortions by vacuum aspiration
(to 14 weeks LMP, 12 weeks conception)
Local anesthetic (numbing medicine) is injected into or near the cervix. Intravenous medication may be administered to ease discomfort. The opening of the cervix is gradually stretched, and a tube attached to a suction machine is inserted into the uterus. The uterus is emptied by suction. After the suction tube is removed, a curette (a spoon-like instrument) is used to scrape the walls of the uterus to be certain it has been completely emptied of the fetus and other products of conception. The procedure takes about 5 to 10 minutes.
Second trimester abortions by dilatation and evacuation
(15 weeks or more from last menstrual period)
Dilators (small, tapered segments of absorbent material which expand as they become moist and slowly open the cervix) may be put into the cervix for several hours or overnight. Intravenous medication may be given to ease discomfort and prevent infection. A local anesthetic is injected into or near the cervix. If dilators have not been used or expansion is incomplete, the cervix is carefully expanded with a succession of smooth tubes. The fetus and other products of conception are removed from the uterus with instruments and suction curettage. The procedure takes about 10-30 minutes.
Second and third trimester abortions by induction method
(22 weeks or more from last menstrual period)
Prior to inducing labor, the cervix is opened with dilators (see above) over a period of hours or days. Fetal death is accomplished with an injection of medication in the fetus. Drugs are administered which help the uterus to contract and expel the fetus. The time from the beginning of the procedure to delivery varies greatly; at Women’s Health Care Services most women deliver in 1 to 4 hours. Following delivery and removal of the placenta, intravenous medication will continue for a short time to make certain the uterus has contracted and bleeding is controlled.
In rare cases where the induction method fails or cannot be used, an extraction procedure (similar to an abortion by D&E) or a hysterotomy is performed to remove the fetus. A hysterotomy is similar to a caesarean section delivery and carries the same risks.
http://www.drtiller.com/ic3.html
At Women's Health Care Services, we specialize in "late" abortion care. We are able to perform elective abortions to the time in the pregnancy when the fetus is viable .
Viability is not a set point in time. Viability is determined by the attending physician and is based on sonogram results, physical examination and last menstrual period date (if known). Our telephone counselors will ask you a number of medical questions to determine if you are eligible for an elective abortion. If you have visited another clinic or physician, we will ask for the results from a recent ultrasound.
Kansas law allows for post-viability abortion procedures when continuing the pregnancy is detrimental to the pregnant woman's health . Each person's circumstances are reviewed on a case-by-base basis. Please call so that we can discuss admission criteria with you.
http://www.drtiller.com/elect.html
(Please note that the term "health of the mother" can include "mental health" meaning desire for abortion.)
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http://www.cwfa.org/articles/3112/CWA/life/
Another late-term abortion technique that has garnered considerable attention in recent years is the partial-birth abortion. Technically called intact dilation and extraction or D&X, the partial-birth abortion is performed on babies from the fifth month of development until birth. This procedure, which takes three days to complete, has prompted controversy because of its particularly brutal nature.
The abortionist begins by dilating the woman’s cervix for two days. On the third day, the abortionist pulls the baby through the birth canal feet first, leaving only the head inside. The abortionist then punctures the base of the skull with surgical scissors, inserts a tube and vacuums out the brain tissue, causing the skull to collapse. Women having partial-birth abortions are “within inches of having a live baby born, and they kill it within minutes.”
As Sen. Don Nickles (R-Oklahoma) correctly observed, “[I]f there is a couple inches’ movement [sic]—then the abortionist would be liable for murder.”
Abortion advocates claim that partial-birth abortions are performed only when the baby’s or the mother’s life is at risk. According to late-term abortionist Dr. Martin Haskell, at least 80 percent of these babies are normal; most are viable; and only 9.4 percent of all late-term abortions are to protect the woman’s life or because of fetal defects.
In fact, Ron Fitzsimmons, executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers, admitted that he had “lied through his teeth” when he reported the procedure was uncommon and only used in the most extreme situations. He admitted that partial-birth abortion is almost always performed on healthy mothers with healthy babies . His statement proves that the procedure is not done to protect a mother’s health. Even the American Medical Association refuses to support partial-birth abortion.
Karen Hayes, CWA associate state director of Illinois, publicized the disturbing abortion procedure that hospitals call “therapeutic” but others call “live-birth” abortion. Though the alarming practice was first discovered at Christ Hospital of Oak Lawn, a Chicago suburb, other hospitals have since been discovered as well. One nurse, Jill Stanek bravely uncovered the procedure and revealed it to the public.
The process involves three basic steps. First, the cervix—the opening at the bottom of the uterus, which usually remains tightly, closed until the time of delivery—is opened using either misoprostol (the brand name of which is Cytotec) or laminaria. Cytotec is usually used. Either one 200-microgram pill or two 100-microgram pills are inserted in or near the cervix, irritating it and causing it to open early. Laminaria are little match-like sticks composed of seaweed. Anywhere from one to 10 sticks are forced into the closed cervix, where the moisture causes the sticks to expand and open the cervix. Laminaria are rarely used.
Second, after the cervix opens, the small baby—usually in the second trimester, according to Jill—literally drops out of his home in the womb. Sometimes, the baby dies in the process. However, many are born alive—thus the name, “live-birth” abortion. In this case, the third step is letting the baby die from neglect. The baby may be held by a nurse (“comfort care”) or left to die alone—at Christ Hospital, usually in a utility closet .
Through Jill’s persistence, the Born Alive Infants Protection Act, a federal law, was signed by President Bush on August 5, 2002. Babies born alive are now declared persons who have legal rights.
Conclusion
America has witnessed more than 30 years of the tragic destruction of the unborn. And while society may want to legitimize the practice through sanitized medical jargon and “new and improved” techniques, the fact remains that abortion—whether performed by RU-486 or through the gruesome partial-birth abortion procedure—takes the life of an innocent child.
Americans must come to grips with the scourge we have brought upon our nation. We must value unborn babies as we value other people. Recognizing the cruelty and violence of abortion is the first step in the right direction.
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Caretaker:
The first step in the Nazi propaganda was to dehumanize undesirables, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally and physically infirm, and the Jews. It became “legal” for the undesirables to be shipped to concentration camps and executed. God’s law declares this murder and an abomination.
The secular humanists declare human life to only have value in its ability to contribute to society. The pre-born are vulnerable to butchery up until the time that they fully traverse the birth canal, and even then they can be shoved into a closet until they die.
The infirm are becoming more and more vulnerable to the secular euthanasia proponents. I have heard Dr. John Peterson, a Biology professor declare that a human life has no more intrinsic value than the acorn which he crushes underfoot on the sidewalk.
God’s law takes precedent over the legislated laws of man. Abortion is the shedding of innocent blood, and all abortion supporters have the blood of innocent babies on their hands, and are culpable in the murder of millions.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Endoxos
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You know, they have produced viable Test-Tube babies relatively left and right, some of those to term completely outside of any womb. What if there was some cheap, but effective way to "grow" the babies to term. It would eliminate the killing, and in the same blow, eliminate the "I can do what I want with my body" excuse. If a person didn't want to carry the baby to term, then put it up for Test-Tube-Adoption.
In such a scenario, would there then be any need for the killing?
As to the "1-minute from being born"... isn't that essentially what partial-birth abortion is? They pull the body out, and 1/3 of the head.
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My signature is apisdn umop.
Posts: 362 | From: HELP! I'm stuck in a DOS window! | Registered: Mar 2004
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Tyme
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Member # 3017
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quote:
Originally posted by Endoxos:
It's funny... people have the constitutional right to murder their own unborn children.
It’s more a “Right to remove it from one’s body” more like, the State can not force you to carry to term the child.
It’s some major issue, and I for one, support this one.
I think it is an infringement on our free will and our rights to choose.
If today we say what you can and can not do with your body, then tomorrow we force you to take medical procedures and then later we are killing off people that “Do not fit the ideal profile”
In our attempt to impose our will on others, we only seek to remove our rights from ourselves.
And have other peoples wills imposed on us.
quote:
It's funny... people have the constitutional right to murder their own unborn children. Why are adults more valuable than children?
Possible Child, there is no Guarantee till after it is born.
“Do not count your chickens before they hatch” as the saying goes.
quote:
Why is a one-minute-old child more valuable than a child that is one minute away from being born?
Got me, Last I checked, They can not do an abortion that late in the pregnancy.
Early third trimester is the latest they can do one, after that, they can remove the child and it can survive on it’s own, and third trimester abortions are only done if the child and the mother are in danger.
quote:
I guess it's because of the age-old adage... what you can't see won't hurt you. If you can't see the child, you can ignore the fact it's a child. If you can't see a person as being able to defend himself, then you can't see the guilt you have in doing so.
I think it is more along the lines of “Who do you think you are to tell me what to do with MY body, and how dare you impose your morals on me!”
Roe Vs. Wade.
I believe in the Constitution of this Country, I believe in the freedoms and rights of all the people of this country and I shall not profane the deaths of every solder that has died, in all the wars for freedom, in an attempt to remove the rights from my country men and woman, simple because I do not like it.
Maybe you do, maybe because you “Just don’t like it” seems valid for you to seek to impose your will on another, but I shall not.
I shall not disregard the blood shed for this country, I shall not insult our founding fathers who came here to offer freedom, and one of those freedoms is religion, which I hold dear.
We are either a land of the Free, or we are a land of Slaves.
Which is it?
Keep trying to remove our freedoms, when we don’t have any left, you can wonder why our bible is not allowed in classrooms anymore.
This can grow into a much larger argument, but I would rather it did not.
Note: I am not saying it is not a Sin, so don’t even play that game. I am not endorsing that Abortions are “Morally Just and Right”. You can slap any label you want on abortions.
All except Illegal.
Tyme.
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I dream of a world.......
Posts: 527 | From: United States | Registered: Mar 2004
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
To me abortion is wrong. We got people wanting to kill babies, to assist suicide. It is only a manner of time until mankind wants to put handicapped people and old people to sleep. Being handicapped, the thought that this can happen is scary to me. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Endoxos
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posted
It's funny... people have the constitutional right to murder their own unborn children. You do jail time if you murder your own born child. You face the death sentence if you murder your own child as an adult.
Why are adults more valuable than children? Why is a one-minute-old child more valuable than a child that is one minute away from being born?
I guess it's because of the age-old adage... what you can't see won't hurt you. If you can't see the child, you can ignore the fact it's a child. If you can't see a person as being able to defend himself, then you can't see the guilt you have in doing so.
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My signature is apisdn umop.
Posts: 362 | From: HELP! I'm stuck in a DOS window! | Registered: Mar 2004
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Tyme
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Member # 3017
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Why is it wrong to have an abortion?
Or is just wrong for a non-Christians to have an abortion?
I never saw anything wrong with people getting an abortion, it’s a free choice, and to say they can’t, infringes on Government Constructional Rights, it’s really a ”Catch 22” situation.
I just never could see why a Christian would get one beyond Health Reasons: IE: Mother will die in Childbirth, Child is stillborn, a lot of other reasons, there are many medical reasons.
Now as for anyone wanting an Abortion, hey, by all means go get one.
God says:” I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,”
Well, as much as I hate to say the Child has to suffer, it’s part of their Pagan/Atheists parents sins being passed down to them.
Tyme.
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I dream of a world.......
Posts: 527 | From: United States | Registered: Mar 2004
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
Why is it wrong to have an abortion?
Or is just wrong for a non-Christians to have an abortion?
We in the Church are under Grace, and sin is not imputed to those under the Blood.
Think about it! ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
the 6th commandment
6. Thou shalt not kill.
Yeshua even made it more emphatic for those that are His followers…….
5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
The Holy Spirit confirms this for the New Covenant Church in…..
1 John 3:13-15
Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Yes, there is Salvation in no other name, but that Salvation is a life changing Salvation, the “Law” the “Commandments” have been written on the hearts of the Faithful by the Spirit of Yahweh. He causes us to hate the things we once loved, and love the things we once despised. We can do nothing apart from His Spirit, but we now love His Law and see it as He sees it, perfect for the converting of the soul.
When we look into that Law we see more greatly our need, and cry unto Him, have mercy on us and forgive them for they know not what they do. And except for the Grace of Yahweh there go I.
How many in the Church are on their face weeping over the souls of Hilary Clinton, Whoopi Goldberg, and others?
I love this board and those on it, I desire your prayers, and I pray for you all, His greatest blessing, the knowledge of the Messiah, Yeshua the Christ.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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TEXASGRANDMA
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I have been having a discussion on another site with those who think that abortion is their right as women. I of course disagree. I think only God should be able to take a life. They think I am a out of step with today's world, but I would rather be out of step with the world than be out of step with God's word. I told my husband if God had wanted women to have the right to pro choice, He would have made us with a button on our belly that we could push if did not want to have the baby.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Daniel S
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posted
I just realized I've found no thread or posting here about last week's feminist (so-called) march in Washington DC. If I missed it, it wouldn't be the first time (or the last) I overlooked a topic I was interested in. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Here are a couple of stories I found about it on ScrappleFace
From April 21st, 2004... quote:
38 Million Not Expected at DC Abortion Rights Rally
(2004-04-21) -- Although several hundred thousand abortion rights supporters are expected to march in Washington D.C. this coming Sunday, a spokesman for a major special interest group said its members would not attend the rally.
The American Association of Aborted People (AAAP), a political inaction committee, said none of its 38 million members would participate in the protest march.
"Since the landmark Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision in 1973, our ranks have swelled by about 1.4 million per year," said the unnamed AAAP spokesman. "So, we should be at the center of any debate about abortion. Unfortunately, none of our members could tear themselves away to attend the rally. But we'll be there in spirit, if not in body."
by Scott Ott
...and from April 25th, 2004... quote:
'Final Generation' of Abortion Advocates Rallies in DC
(2004-04-25) -- Calling themselves the "final generation" of abortion advocates, hundreds of thousands of women today packed the Mall in Washington D.C. to defend their right to prevent their views on abortion from being passed on to their children.
"It was too late for me," one unnamed speaker told the throng of pro-abortion protestors. "I had my children before the 1973 Roe v. Wade court ruling. I tried to bring them up right--you know, teaching them that this world is a horrible place to bring children into. My legacy has been passed on to them. Thanks to my efforts, they don't have to pass on anything to anybody."
Hillary Clinton Electrifies Crowd
Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-NYArk, reminded the largely-female gathering of the important connection between abortion and voting, noting that 50 million eligible women failed to cast ballots during the last presidential election.
"Historically, pregnant women have felt helpless and that feeling carries over into other areas of their lives--like politics," said Mrs. Clinton, as her daughter, Chelsea, looked on. "Abortion empowers women to make life and death choices. Once you've made a decision to stop a beating heart, other choices--like whom to vote for--don't seem nearly so intimidating."
Pelosi Echoes "I Have a Dream" Speech
House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, in a speech reminiscent of the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., told the crowd that she had a dream that racial tensions in America would fade because blacks have three times the abortion rate of whites.
"Reducing the population of racial minorities is probably the most effective way of reducing tension among the races," said Mrs. Pelosi. "As the population of black children stabilizes, then declines, whites will feel less threatened. Perhaps the most encouraging thing a white politician can do for African-American women is to say, 'Sister, it's your right to abort your children. I affirm you.'"
by Scott Ott
A million people screaming for the right to kill the innocent? First of all, it wasn't even close to a million. High estimates were 600,000 and comparison estimates showed they were about half or less of the Promise Keepers march a few years ago. But even one calling for the right to murder an unborn child is nauseating.
Dan S
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