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» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » The Christian News   » Experts restore Shroud of Turin

   
Author Topic: Experts restore Shroud of Turin
Robby
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If you are saying that our faith in Jesus does not hinge upon the reality the Shroud of Turin, then I agree. If you are saying we should not worship the Shroud of Turin, I agree.

However, if you are saying that the Shroud of Turin is an absolute fake, then I disagree, because I think there is more evidence to suggest it is genuine. Again, I do not believe our faith hinges upon the reality of the Shroud, which makes it easier to examine the Shroud using archeological and scientific means.

As an artist, I can vouch for the fact that it absolutely no sense--whatsoever--for any artist to lightly paint a negative of a human body in which both posterior and anterior sides are drawn. Furthermore, to do it in a way that both sides are anatomically perfect with one another and mirroring each other, is extremely difficult.
shroud image

Also, the amount of detail and depth of the Shroud image is incredible, despite the light pigmentation. Artists do paintings to be seen, I would think any Midievel artist would have done a resurrection image similiar to, Rembrandt's "Ascension".

Do you want to tell me Giotto did the Shroud? He is the only one I can think of who was around during the recorded C14 date of 1260-1390. But as great a painter as was Giotto (1266/67-1337), I am skeptical he that he was talented enough to do the Shroud image. Leonardo DaVinci came much later (1452-1519) and Michaelangelo (1475-1564).

The autopsy report on the man of the Shroud corroborates precisely with the wounds of Jesus mentioned in the Bible--the wounds to the head, scurge marks on the body, nail marks in the wrists and feet, spear wound on the side, etc. The skeletal structure (bones) can clearly be seen and are anotomically accurate. The veins and arteries depict correct blood flow patters. DNA blood samples conclude that the "blood" on the Shroud is actual blood from a male human (it's too old and degraded to be of any use to try and clone the man). The fiber weave shows the cloth is from the 1st century and originated in the middle east. Pollen samples show they are from flowers originating from Jerusalem. Dirt samples contained a relatively rare form of calcite found in Jerusalem.

Medical, artistic, forensic and botanical evidence all favor the authenticity of the shroud of Turin as the burial cloth of Jesus. Seemingly, the lone exeption is the 1988 Carbon 14 dating. It is my observation that bacteria and fungi which has accumulated on the Shroud over the years (and is still multiplying and present), along with the 1532 fire whereby the Shroud was exposed to intense heat at low oxygen, thus biologicallly and chemically altering the Shroud made the C14 dating of the Shroud younger than it actually is.

Regardless of the Shroud's authenticity, my faith hinges only upon Jesus--who was, and is, and is yet to come.

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Miguel
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Isaiah 17:8 And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect [that] which his fingers have made, either the groves, or the images.

Isaiah 42:8 I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
art
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The shroud of Turin is in the same league as the Lady of Fatima and the face of Jesus in a cloud formation. Cute, but pure speculation and should have no place in the born again Christian mentality. I come from a catholic background so am full aware of all its attention to pictures, images,relics, symbols and idols. Just as there are harlots, there are false churches, but the mother of them all is the roman church, she is the "Mother of Harlots".
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Robby
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Turin Shroud (UPI) Turin Shroud may be genuine after all

By Uwe Siemon-Netto UNITED PRESS INTERNATIONAL

The Turin Shroud bearing the features of a crucified man may well be the cloth that enveloped the body of Christ, a renowned textile historian told United Press International Tuesday.

Disputing inconclusive carbon-dating tests suggesting the shroud hailed from medieval times, Swiss specialist Mechthild Flury-Lemberg said it could be almost 2,000 years old.

Perhaps even more important is what Flury-Lemberg saw when she examined the back of the shroud – the first researcher ever to do so. While it bore bloodstains, there were no mysterious marks comparable to those on the front of the cloth.

These marks show an amazingly detailed picture of a bearded man who had been beaten about the body, crowned with thorns and pierced with nails through the wrists and the feet.

On the side of the body's outline there appeared to be an image of a wound, which was perhaps the one caused by a Roman soldier's spear when he tried to find out if the crucified Jesus was alive or dead.

Flury-Lemberg, a Hamburg-born scholar now living in Berne, Switzerland, did preservation work on the shroud this summer. She said the outline of the body looked somewhat like burn marks, but only in the top 2 millimeters of the cloth.

Some theologians believe this may have occurred as Christ's body exited the shroud during his resurrection. Flury-Lemberg was quick to point out, though, this could never be scientifically proven. The same applied to the question if the tortured and crucified man buried in the shroud was Jesus.

Flury-Lemberg investigated the cloth this summer as she separated it in from the Dutch linen cloistered nuns in Chambéry in Savoy had sewn it to after a fire in 1534.

She explained the linen's progressing oxidization had been endangering the shroud. As she separated the two textiles, she removed "spoonfuls of soot." She cleaned the shroud before it was sewn to a new cloth.

Pollen analysis and the shroud's measurements suggested it originated in the Middle East and not in medieval Europe. Flury-Lemberg described its quality as "stunningly noble, with an almost invisible seam."

She related she discovered identical forms of weaving and high-quality sewing on textiles found at Masada, the ancient fortress in southeastern Israel. They hailed from the year AD 73.

According to the Berne scholar, other first-century cloths found in the Red Sea region showed weaving patterns similar to those of the Turin Shroud.

"All these things are mosaics that don't prove anything scientifically," she insisted.

"However, this cloth left a radiant expression on me," Flury-Lemberg told UPI. She made it clear she was not a Roman Catholic but a Lutheran, "but this shroud is not just a Catholic relic but a treasure of all Christendom."

She said regardless of this impression, she has had to work on the Shroud dispassionately "like a surgeon operating on his own wife."

Flury-Lemberg questioned the relevance of findings by other researchers who discovered pollen and dust traceable to the Middle Ages on the cloth.

"Of course it had such particles on it," she said, "after all, the Shroud was exhibited a great deal in those days."

Historian Karlheinz Dietz of Wuerzburg University in Germany shares Flury-Lemberg's doubts of the 1988 carbon-dating results claiming that the cloth was made between 1260 and 1290.

In an interview with the Germany daily, Die Welt, he stated, "If you believe that the cloth hails from the Middle Ages then you must also believe that a man looking exactly like Jesus ... was whipped, crowned with thorns, crucified and then placed on linen imported from the Middle East and sprinkled with aloe and myrrh, and that on top of all he had invented monumental photography."

Dietz was referring to the discovery of the Christ-like image by Italian photographer Secundo Pia in 1889.

"On the Shroud we see a genuine 'photography' that originated long before photography was invented," Dietz said.

Scientists can't say what might have caused this ancient "photography" of a Christ-like figure. Many Catholic and Protestant theologians do not doubt, though, it was the Resurrection. If it was that, test results show it must have occurred no later than 36 hours after the dead man's bloody body had been wrapped in this expensive shroud.

This too, corresponds to the Biblical narrative.

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Kindgo
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Hey Mac,
Thats fine by me. I am just reporting it, not saying I believe it. [Big Grin]

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God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

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Miguel
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SORRY KINDGO BUT THIS IS NOT FOR ME

AFTER THEY FINISH WITH HIS BODY THERE GOES THE FACE OF CHRIST

AND WHAT AM I GOING TO DO WITH THIS VERSES;

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

Exodus 23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

Leviticus 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee [any] graven image, [or] any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters beneath the earth:

Deuteronomy 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me,

Deuteronomy 7:25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold [that is] on them, nor take [it] unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it [is] an abomination to the LORD thy God.

Isaiah 42:8 I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kindgo
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 -

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God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kindgo
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The Associated Press


TURIN, Italy (September 21, 2002 11:09 p.m. EDT) - Experts performed a top-secret restoration of the Shroud of Turin, removing centuries' old patches and a replacing a backing sewn centuries ago onto what some say was the burial cloth of Jesus, Church officials announced Saturday.

The restoration was carried out with explicit Vatican permission, and aimed only to protect and document the artifact.

The project consisted of three main elements: the removal of patches and a backing sewn onto the Shroud in the 16th century; a digital scan of both sides; and photo documentation.

The restoration was done June 20 to July 23 by Shroud expert Mechthild Flury Lemberg and restorer Irene Tomedi. Vague reports of the project leaked to the media in August, enraging other Shroud experts, who argued that the work should have involved less secrecy and more international collaboration.

Shroud custodians said Saturday that silence was needed because they feared after Sept. 11 that the cloth could become a target for attack as it was being restored.

The shroud, which is kept in the Turin cathedral, is a strip of linen about 14 feet long and 3 1/2-feet wide that is marked by an image of Jesus. Believers say the image was left by his body after being taken down from the cross.

A carbon-dating test ended in 1988 with a scientific team declaring that the shroud apparently came from medieval times. Disputes have flourished over that study and others, including one by researchers at The Hebrew University that concluded pollen and plant images on the shroud showed it originated around Jerusalem sometime before the eighth century.

The shroud is kept under tight security, with only a handful of people allowed access, among them Flury Lemberg, who was part of a commission established to study its conservation in 2000.

Flury Lemberg substituted the old backing with a fresh one "in a way that made it possible at every point to verify the non-invasiveness of the intervention."

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God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator


 
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